The current meta is making ROR boring

[Ysaran]

so you compare GtdC to not 1 , not 2 but 3 Slayer skills. Is it cause GtdC is that good ? hmmm

well, choppa has retribution too but he can't use retribution+gtdc at the same time (cuz they are both channel) while slayer you use ID+retribution at the same time. rampage is just the cherry on the broken cake .

jokes aside: choppa complain about slayer because slayer' abilities synergise just too well while choppa' skill are just meh. i'm playng almost only order for 2 years now and i know too that GTDC is annnoying af but that jus what it: annoying.

I really hope devs grant your wish.
if anything could get rid of that broken cc I will face rampage everyday with my parry sm.
that brief stun-flying-land-turning camera is so **** annoying.

oh i wish that too

[Miaso]

Slayers abilities synergise well together but GTDC synergises perfectly with the meta tactic melee train. You try playing a ranged or squishy class on order coming up against the aoe melee train, against Slayers you can kite and use sticky feet, against the Choppa train you try kite and slow but 9 times out of 10 you are pulled in and dead within 2 seconds. As an Order squishie that meta is making ROR boring.

[CountTalabecland]

Spoiler:

? It really isn't. You kind of roasted yourself there though.

Any of the very few good Order premades is going to laugh at GTDC spam, because it isnt hard to counter and it hands out free immunities that are MUCH better spend properly CCing targets at the right times.

Once again you come back saying "not it isnt." That's not an argument. I guess the only thing to do will be to make a thread for Order plays to post video and screenshots of the spam since we are apparently all imagining this.

If GTDC is so bad and useless, why does dest fight so hard not to have it nerfed or removed? So much downplaying just to come right back and say that you couldnt nerf GTDC without doing something to Slayer. So which is it?

ffs roll a choppa and stop whining. you are **** toxic. it's four years that you complain about GTDC and you don't know **** about it.
i have a rr81 choppa and a rr74 slayer and i would gladly have rampage+ID on choppa rather then GTDC.
choppa spam GTDC because they are desperate, because they have no other valuable skill! if they could spam rampage+ID+retribution they would do it, but they can't!

GTDC is whats toxic, not me. You say that it only catches you in "bad plays" yet this one ability has changed the entire game meta so I guess its all of Order that is bad? Look at destro trying to get into forts, they wreck Order in the open in the first stage and then die in droves trying to get into lords room because they cant pull everyone. Clearly the meta being played in GTDC and when it doesnt work the meta disintegrates against RDPS.

I have been complaining about this, and I will not stop, because it is the truth. Also, I do have a choppa so thanks for that red herring. My Slayer outranks yours so let me just throw my rr around like you do and say that I would gladly give up both ID and rampage for a Pull/stun/speedboost, that must make me right.

Choppa is far from desperate, they top Destro DPS in city. So if they are topping DPS without ID/Rampage, they must not be as "despserate" as you are trying to convince everyone of. Its a strong class.

I have no problem admitting that before the rework they needed a buff to boost them into the meta builds, but GTDC was many steps too far into overpowered. Destro spends city coordinating GTDC in comms and Order spends city on comms trying to get ppl to spread and avoid getting sucked into the melee death ball, I just don't see how this ability is useless and not valuable when the entire game meta atm is built around it.

And please, stop with the name calling, dont embarrass yourself.

[CountTalabecland]

Spoiler:

? It really isn't. You kind of roasted yourself there though.

Any of the very few good Order premades is going to laugh at GTDC spam, because it isnt hard to counter and it hands out free immunities that are MUCH better spend properly CCing targets at the right times.

Once again you come back saying "not it isnt." That's not an argument. I guess the only thing to do will be to make a thread for Order plays to post video and screenshots of the spam since we are apparently all imagining this.

If GTDC is so bad and useless, why does dest fight so hard not to have it nerfed or removed? So much downplaying just to come right back and say that you couldnt nerf GTDC without doing something to Slayer. So which is it?

1. You keep repeating yourself about "GTDC IS OP" people keep telling you "No it's not" and then you complain about how people keep repeating themselves, people have elaborated and given you excellent feedback about the problems that exist with GTDC, yet these you keep ignoring instead you answer with "arguments" such as "no it isn't, isn't an argument", you're not providing an argument for your point of view either.
You just keep repeating how destro players must have a parrot because you hear the same things repeated over and over again. Well you keep repeating yourself, are you expecting another result?

2. We've said several times that sure remove the pull mechanic from gtdc, but buff it in some other way (damage, root/snare immunity there's been several suggestions), but you want to keep repeating "GTDC OP" and blame your losses on a ability that's in a poor state atm because you see it, and it punishes bad plays.

3. Why do people want to see a nerf of slayer if gtdc is nerfed?
Okay so I'll answer you here again, compare the two trees of choppa and slayer.
Both have the aoe slow, and the tactics are similar (identical I do believe) the abilities is where there's a difference, chop fasta Vs. Shattered limbs, these are supposed to cancel eachother out, now SL was nerfed to 3 sec (same with msh so pretty fair balance change) chop fasta doesn't do damage and affects 6 people. SL affects all enemies 35 ft in front of the slayer, and does a decent chunk of damage.
Then we have ID Vs GTDC, they tick every 2 sec and have a similar area of effect. Damage part is a bit better on gtdc and gtdc also provides choppas with a pull, minor speed boost and undefendable damage.
The downsides of gtdc is it's long cd, and the fact it's a channel, the channel removes natural ap regen and auto attacks, and as a slayer you know ap starvation is a thing on both careers.
ID is 5 sec cd, so you'll get 4 ID of during one GTDC cd, pair this with whispering winds or your own cd reduction and you can spam the ability, gtdc will still be a 10 sec cd (using both cd reductions) and a 6 sec long channel.
But the big problem is that choppa cannot set gtdc up with bring it on, slayers easily get a few id and aoe dots out and then you push retribution for your big damage drop, choppa instead needs to play the scenario completely differently, where you apply dots wait for drop start gtdc channel just to instantly stop it to get double tick and then bring it on. The drop from gtdc double tick sure is a better burst than id, but here's the issue, choppa doesn't have guaranteed undefendable attacks when channeling bring it on, the biggest hitting ability on both slayer and choppa so their damage will plummet after the burst while slayers will keep the pressure.
Is it weird that people feel that maybe the best melee DPS in the game shoulde be nerfed if it's mirror which is seen as inferior by the majority is getting nerfs? (Mara has been interpolated to line up with WL dmg numbers, yet slayers still out perform choppas in equal fights) specially when choppas has been the career that has more utility and less damage and their utility is nerfed?

4. Needing to exploit an ability like this to be able to get any decent burst is not fun gameplay, we've complained about it for a long time and we've heard how order priders whine about the pull 24/7 fabricating claims about how it one shots tanks, pulls through walls, doesn't apply root immunity, eternal healer juggles between choppas, removal of avoidance while in air and so forth (they never provide any proof for some weird reason)
The majority of us want a better 13 point ability that synergizes better than a LUL 2k instant burst on squishy target with no guard.

5. Fun reflection from my perspective, was watching fevens stream where he played his DPS AM on a keep wall in CW or the maw, there's a choppa down below him, I think cakey sneaks up behind him and uses sov punt to punt feven off, feven instantly rages about GTDC.
Don't get me wrong here feven seems like a great guy, he has done more for the community than I have or ever will and he deserves praise, but this also shows how when ever you get punted/pulled/air borne it's instant "NERF GTDC".

TLDR

Kinda skimmed this wall of text, most the stuff in part 4 ended up being true....
Also Idk who these ppl at the end are, but cool.

[Foofmonger]

At least it's better than on live.

This is a legacy of class mechanics and frankly, bad game design. Giving 4 of the 12 DPS classes in this game "free damage lolz but hey you are slightly squishier", was always a bad idea. The devs on RoR have made this way less of an issue than it historically was (primarily by changing a variety of things and buffing other archetypes), but Slayers/Choppas/BW/Sorcs have always had an issue in this game, and it's due to their frankly bad design in comparison to the rest of the classes. They've been squeezing out other DPS classes for 12 years now, and the same goes for here.

The reality is, organization tends to make up for these classes pitiful weaknesses, and normally, when trying to win, you are going to use the DPS classes who "do the most damage" as your "base" of DPS classes. Other DPS classes will get compared to the "base" classes to see if they bring any additional nuance/utility that supports their use in comparison to those "base classes". I.e., at a base, you want to take Slayers/Choppas (for melee) and Sorcs/BWs (for ranged, although less important in city). To justify your own existence as "another" DPS class, you need to bring enough to the table to justify your own inclusion.

What this leads to is situations like we have now with this "meta". The best comps are ones that are going to lean on the stronger DPS classes for raw damage, and then supplement those DPS classes with a few other DPS classes who bring certain utility/niche. Example: Order may bring a WH/WL/ASW (2 total) for their single target melee train instead of another 2 slayers, Order may bring 1 magnet Engie instead of a BW, so on and so forth (also applies the same to destro).

It's unlikely this is going to change to be honest, unless there are big-reworks planned in the future. You simply can't replicate getting 50% free damage, or 35% free crit chance and 100% free crit damage. The classes that get these bonuses will always be "the most raw dps" possible, due to how the combat system and scaling works (and they will only get stronger as gear gets better).

One of the major issues the design of this game has was stacking waaaay too much utility into these "glass cannon" DPS Archetypes. Frankly, Slayers/Choppas shouldn't have rampage, GTDC, shatter limbs, or pretty much any utility that doesn't involve "me do more damage". They should be the least mobile of MDPS classes by far, and should also have the least utility. Same goes for BW/Sorc, (even moreso for the BW) who is so overstacked with utility it's ridiculous (really a heal debuff and ranged KD on your glass cannon DPS class instead of putting those on the Engie?), etc..

However, unless the devs want to rework the system from the ground up and re-design most of the archetypes and balance in this game, that's not going to happen. So I suggest you get used to how WAR was designed and how classes play out in the games "meta". Choppa/Slayers/BWs/Sorcs will be the premier DPS classes in this game because of their mechanics, and that's not changing anytime soon.

It's funny to watch Slayer and Choppa mains argue about singular abilities when they don't have the perspective that the real issue is that objectively, both of their classes are just over-tuned in utility for the amount of damage potential they provide. This has been a longstanding issue, and again, it's far better here than it once was, but it's still going to be an issue. It was certainly a learning experience for MMO game design, and not something you see replicated in newer designs (because it wasn't a good idea). Giving your "highest DPS" classes enough utility to cover their asses, without giving the "high utility" classes enough damage to compete, is not a "winning" design philosophy here, and why we see in modern game design that "high damage" classes/characters/heroes (whatever) tend to also have low levels of utility/survivability/mobility. If you give certain classes "too much" they become overstacked in terms of relative power and parasitic to the rest of the combat system.

My own personal opinion would be thus: Best way to fix this issue is to effectively, re-distribute abilities in this game. Heavily reduce Slayer/Choppa/BW/Sorc utility where possible. None of these classes should have any CC, any heal debuffs, any cd reducer debuffs, or any of this utility. Give them more damaging abilities/abilities that allow them to apply this damage in exchange. Redistribute those abilities among the less played/meta classes (example, give ASW or WH shatter limbs). Now these 4 classes do what they are supposed to (bring the highest raw damage, but need help/coordination to apply it), and makes the other "less desired" classes more desirable by giving them the utility that they lack in comparison to the raw damage of the "zerker/blaster" archetypes. This is the only viable way to "solve" the issue for good, instead of slapping more band-aids on bullet wounds.

That being said, I'm also fine with the way it is.

[Fai]

? It really isn't. You kind of roasted yourself there though.

Any of the very few good Order premades is going to laugh at GTDC spam, because it isnt hard to counter and it hands out free immunities that are MUCH better spend properly CCing targets at the right times.

Once again you come back saying "not it isnt." That's not an argument. I guess the only thing to do will be to make a thread for Order plays to post video and screenshots of the spam since we are apparently all imagining this.

If GTDC is so bad and useless, why does dest fight so hard not to have it nerfed or removed? So much downplaying just to come right back and say that you couldnt nerf GTDC without doing something to Slayer. So which is it?

1. You keep repeating yourself about "GTDC IS OP" people keep telling you "No it's not" and then you complain about how people keep repeating themselves, people have elaborated and given you excellent feedback about the problems that exist with GTDC, yet these you keep ignoring instead you answer with "arguments" such as "no it isn't, isn't an argument", you're not providing an argument for your point of view either.
You just keep repeating how destro players must have a parrot because you hear the same things repeated over and over again. Well you keep repeating yourself, are you expecting another result?

2. We've said several times that sure remove the pull mechanic from gtdc, but buff it in some other way (damage, root/snare immunity there's been several suggestions), but you want to keep repeating "GTDC OP" and blame your losses on a ability that's in a poor state atm because you see it, and it punishes bad plays.

3. Why do people want to see a nerf of slayer if gtdc is nerfed?
Okay so I'll answer you here again, compare the two trees of choppa and slayer.
Both have the aoe slow, and the tactics are similar (identical I do believe) the abilities is where there's a difference, chop fasta Vs. Shattered limbs, these are supposed to cancel eachother out, now SL was nerfed to 3 sec (same with msh so pretty fair balance change) chop fasta doesn't do damage and affects 6 people. SL affects all enemies 35 ft in front of the slayer, and does a decent chunk of damage.
Then we have ID Vs GTDC, they tick every 2 sec and have a similar area of effect. Damage part is a bit better on gtdc and gtdc also provides choppas with a pull, minor speed boost and undefendable damage.
The downsides of gtdc is it's long cd, and the fact it's a channel, the channel removes natural ap regen and auto attacks, and as a slayer you know ap starvation is a thing on both careers.
ID is 5 sec cd, so you'll get 4 ID of during one GTDC cd, pair this with whispering winds or your own cd reduction and you can spam the ability, gtdc will still be a 10 sec cd (using both cd reductions) and a 6 sec long channel.
But the big problem is that choppa cannot set gtdc up with bring it on, slayers easily get a few id and aoe dots out and then you push retribution for your big damage drop, choppa instead needs to play the scenario completely differently, where you apply dots wait for drop start gtdc channel just to instantly stop it to get double tick and then bring it on. The drop from gtdc double tick sure is a better burst than id, but here's the issue, choppa doesn't have guaranteed undefendable attacks when channeling bring it on, the biggest hitting ability on both slayer and choppa so their damage will plummet after the burst while slayers will keep the pressure.
Is it weird that people feel that maybe the best melee DPS in the game shoulde be nerfed if it's mirror which is seen as inferior by the majority is getting nerfs? (Mara has been interpolated to line up with WL dmg numbers, yet slayers still out perform choppas in equal fights) specially when choppas has been the career that has more utility and less damage and their utility is nerfed?

4. Needing to exploit an ability like this to be able to get any decent burst is not fun gameplay, we've complained about it for a long time and we've heard how order priders whine about the pull 24/7 fabricating claims about how it one shots tanks, pulls through walls, doesn't apply root immunity, eternal healer juggles between choppas, removal of avoidance while in air and so forth (they never provide any proof for some weird reason)
The majority of us want a better 13 point ability that synergizes better than a LUL 2k instant burst on squishy target with no guard.

5. Fun reflection from my perspective, was watching fevens stream where he played his DPS AM on a keep wall in CW or the maw, there's a choppa down below him, I think cakey sneaks up behind him and uses sov punt to punt feven off, feven instantly rages about GTDC.
Don't get me wrong here feven seems like a great guy, he has done more for the community than I have or ever will and he deserves praise, but this also shows how when ever you get punted/pulled/air borne it's instant "NERF GTDC".

one of the best posts in this thread so far. ty!

[Rapzel]

Spoiler:

Once again you come back saying "not it isnt." That's not an argument. I guess the only thing to do will be to make a thread for Order plays to post video and screenshots of the spam since we are apparently all imagining this.

If GTDC is so bad and useless, why does dest fight so hard not to have it nerfed or removed? So much downplaying just to come right back and say that you couldnt nerf GTDC without doing something to Slayer. So which is it?

1. You keep repeating yourself about "GTDC IS OP" people keep telling you "No it's not" and then you complain about how people keep repeating themselves, people have elaborated and given you excellent feedback about the problems that exist with GTDC, yet these you keep ignoring instead you answer with "arguments" such as "no it isn't, isn't an argument", you're not providing an argument for your point of view either.
You just keep repeating how destro players must have a parrot because you hear the same things repeated over and over again. Well you keep repeating yourself, are you expecting another result?

2. We've said several times that sure remove the pull mechanic from gtdc, but buff it in some other way (damage, root/snare immunity there's been several suggestions), but you want to keep repeating "GTDC OP" and blame your losses on a ability that's in a poor state atm because you see it, and it punishes bad plays.

3. Why do people want to see a nerf of slayer if gtdc is nerfed?
Okay so I'll answer you here again, compare the two trees of choppa and slayer.
Both have the aoe slow, and the tactics are similar (identical I do believe) the abilities is where there's a difference, chop fasta Vs. Shattered limbs, these are supposed to cancel eachother out, now SL was nerfed to 3 sec (same with msh so pretty fair balance change) chop fasta doesn't do damage and affects 6 people. SL affects all enemies 35 ft in front of the slayer, and does a decent chunk of damage.
Then we have ID Vs GTDC, they tick every 2 sec and have a similar area of effect. Damage part is a bit better on gtdc and gtdc also provides choppas with a pull, minor speed boost and undefendable damage.
The downsides of gtdc is it's long cd, and the fact it's a channel, the channel removes natural ap regen and auto attacks, and as a slayer you know ap starvation is a thing on both careers.
ID is 5 sec cd, so you'll get 4 ID of during one GTDC cd, pair this with whispering winds or your own cd reduction and you can spam the ability, gtdc will still be a 10 sec cd (using both cd reductions) and a 6 sec long channel.
But the big problem is that choppa cannot set gtdc up with bring it on, slayers easily get a few id and aoe dots out and then you push retribution for your big damage drop, choppa instead needs to play the scenario completely differently, where you apply dots wait for drop start gtdc channel just to instantly stop it to get double tick and then bring it on. The drop from gtdc double tick sure is a better burst than id, but here's the issue, choppa doesn't have guaranteed undefendable attacks when channeling bring it on, the biggest hitting ability on both slayer and choppa so their damage will plummet after the burst while slayers will keep the pressure.
Is it weird that people feel that maybe the best melee DPS in the game shoulde be nerfed if it's mirror which is seen as inferior by the majority is getting nerfs? (Mara has been interpolated to line up with WL dmg numbers, yet slayers still out perform choppas in equal fights) specially when choppas has been the career that has more utility and less damage and their utility is nerfed?

4. Needing to exploit an ability like this to be able to get any decent burst is not fun gameplay, we've complained about it for a long time and we've heard how order priders whine about the pull 24/7 fabricating claims about how it one shots tanks, pulls through walls, doesn't apply root immunity, eternal healer juggles between choppas, removal of avoidance while in air and so forth (they never provide any proof for some weird reason)
The majority of us want a better 13 point ability that synergizes better than a LUL 2k instant burst on squishy target with no guard.

5. Fun reflection from my perspective, was watching fevens stream where he played his DPS AM on a keep wall in CW or the maw, there's a choppa down below him, I think cakey sneaks up behind him and uses sov punt to punt feven off, feven instantly rages about GTDC.
Don't get me wrong here feven seems like a great guy, he has done more for the community than I have or ever will and he deserves praise, but this also shows how when ever you get punted/pulled/air borne it's instant "NERF GTDC".

TLDR

Kinda skimmed this wall of text, most the stuff in part 4 ended up being true....
Also Idk who these ppl at the end are, but cool.

What is true? GTDC pull has been tested by the devs, it applies root immunity they cannot reproduce the issue, and no one can provide proof that it is that way.
The pull through walls is also absurd because the range is very short (30 ft) and still has not been provided proof of.
Eternal juggles, is also something we need proof of.
Removing avoidance in air has been tested and we have proof of how that is not the case.
https://streamable.com/moes83

[Przepraszam]

At least it's better than on live.

This is a legacy of class mechanics and frankly, bad game design. Giving 4 of the 12 DPS classes in this game "free damage lolz but hey you are slightly squishier", was always a bad idea. The devs on RoR have made this way less of an issue than it historically was (primarily by changing a variety of things and buffing other archetypes), but Slayers/Choppas/BW/Sorcs have always had an issue in this game, and it's due to their frankly bad design in comparison to the rest of the classes. They've been squeezing out other DPS classes for 12 years now, and the same goes for here.

The reality is, organization tends to make up for these classes pitiful weaknesses, and normally, when trying to win, you are going to use the DPS classes who "do the most damage" as your "base" of DPS classes. Other DPS classes will get compared to the "base" classes to see if they bring any additional nuance/utility that supports their use in comparison to those "base classes". I.e., at a base, you want to take Slayers/Choppas (for melee) and Sorcs/BWs (for ranged, although less important in city). To justify your own existence as "another" DPS class, you need to bring enough to the table to justify your own inclusion.

What this leads to is situations like we have now with this "meta". The best comps are ones that are going to lean on the stronger DPS classes for raw damage, and then supplement those DPS classes with a few other DPS classes who bring certain utility/niche. Example: Order may bring a WH/WL/ASW (2 total) for their single target melee train instead of another 2 slayers, Order may bring 1 magnet Engie instead of a BW, so on and so forth (also applies the same to destro).

It's unlikely this is going to change to be honest, unless there are big-reworks planned in the future. You simply can't replicate getting 50% free damage, or 35% free crit chance and 100% free crit damage. The classes that get these bonuses will always be "the most raw dps" possible, due to how the combat system and scaling works (and they will only get stronger as gear gets better).

One of the major issues the design of this game has was stacking waaaay too much utility into these "glass cannon" DPS Archetypes. Frankly, Slayers/Choppas shouldn't have rampage, GTDC, shatter limbs, or pretty much any utility that doesn't involve "me do more damage". They should be the least mobile of MDPS classes by far, and should also have the least utility. Same goes for BW/Sorc, (even moreso for the BW) who is so overstacked with utility it's ridiculous (really a heal debuff and ranged KD on your glass cannon DPS class instead of putting those on the Engie?), etc..

However, unless the devs want to rework the system from the ground up and re-design most of the archetypes and balance in this game, that's not going to happen. So I suggest you get used to how WAR was designed and how classes play out in the games "meta". Choppa/Slayers/BWs/Sorcs will be the premier DPS classes in this game because of their mechanics, and that's not changing anytime soon.

It's funny to watch Slayer and Choppa mains argue about singular abilities when they don't have the perspective that the real issue is that objectively, both of their classes are just over-tuned in utility for the amount of damage potential they provide. This has been a longstanding issue, and again, it's far better here than it once was, but it's still going to be an issue. It was certainly a learning experience for MMO game design, and not something you see replicated in newer designs (because it wasn't a good idea). Giving your "highest DPS" classes enough utility to cover their asses, without giving the "high utility" classes enough damage to compete, is not a "winning" design philosophy here, and why we see in modern game design that "high damage" classes/characters/heroes (whatever) tend to also have low levels of utility/survivability/mobility. If you give certain classes "too much" they become overstacked in terms of relative power and parasitic to the rest of the combat system.

My own personal opinion would be thus: Best way to fix this issue is to effectively, re-distribute abilities in this game. Heavily reduce Slayer/Choppa/BW/Sorc utility where possible. None of these classes should have any CC, any heal debuffs, any cd reducer debuffs, or any of this utility. Give them more damaging abilities/abilities that allow them to apply this damage in exchange. Redistribute those abilities among the less played/meta classes (example, give ASW or WH shatter limbs). Now these 4 classes do what they are supposed to (bring the highest raw damage, but need help/coordination to apply it), and makes the other "less desired" classes more desirable by giving them the utility that they lack in comparison to the raw damage of the "zerker/blaster" archetypes. This is the only viable way to "solve" the issue for good, instead of slapping more band-aids on bullet wounds.

That being said, I'm also fine with the way it is.

Another great post <3

[iantheace]

Im not sure of the arguments on choppas vs slayers on here

The main argument is Choppas/slayers vs Everything else on their realms If you don't take 4 choppas/4Slayers (usually more than this because slayers are just the best dps) you are basically gimping yourself really badly.

This shouldnt be a thing.

Cheers

[phononHYPE]

It's getting old to listen to Destro try and downplay how objectively strong GTDC is.

I still stand by what I've said previously: take Rampage away from Slayers and give them a GTDC mirror called "Get to the Beard". I guarantee within 2 weeks Destro will complain so hard about how OP it is that both abilities will be removed from the game.

Please stop saying this. From someone that plays both sides, and there are plenty of us out there, we regularly have to deal with it, and we do just fine. It takes away the initial 1-2s and gives immunity for when you really want it. As a choppa main, I hate when people use GTDC, in almost all situations. On order toons, I love it as I will then have immunity for any real threats. Its certain players I worry, not abilities.