do we have a balance problem?

[Jeliel80]

Forming warbands could help order I would say.
Tonight very close fights in wb vs wb instances...but people keep solo queueing...

[sighy]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

19.1220.1221.1223.1225.12

65 instances
Desto won 51 - 78% win
Order won 14 - 22% win

Spoiler:

You dont get the point here. Mythic balanced and designed all classes over years. There was a reason to give abilitys to one class and some abilitys to other classes. All i said is that we actual shifting abilitys between realms without thinking about there original design and why some classes have no access to some abilitys.
I´m not saying game is worse than on live but also not better in all aspects.
This Order pug vs destro wb - destro win and build order wb vs destro -order win is nothing than a personal meaning of you. there are so many aspects why you win or lose a fight. just saying order loose because pug is simply wrong. I play city's by myself only on build and actual meta wb´s and this dosent mean i win all my citys

Mythics balance was atrocious, people were 2-3 shotting people with BiS on certain careers, shaman and AM BiS was like taking another healer with two gear sets down. Ravage spam for 1500 dmg, BW wiping 24 mans on release, the game was a mess, and little was done to balance it, stop trying to be nostalgic about mythic, they had no idea what they were doing at all. The devs here have continued to balance the careers from what was left by mythic, and even though some changes have been more or less successful the factions are way more balanced than live ever was. Just drop this mythic bs.

Personal meaning? What?
I play both sides, mainly order lately, there is no way order should be struggling the way they are with the careers they have access to.
If your super duper magnum meta guild WB lose against Destro, it's because Destro played better than you, not because of auto-detaunt on shaman or whatever you're trying to blame, the same team would best you if you played on Destro and they were on Order, surprise there's better players in this game than you and me.
If people who are skilled and good at this game manage to keep a 90%+ win rate on order (insert double WH meme) is it really an order issue, or is it a player issue? Devs cannot balance player skill.

Rp vs Shammy was just an example as i said. You can also say Shammy vs class XY. If you dont see the benefit of auto detaunt i cant help you. You dont need a global cd for it and dont need to refresh it all 5 sec. I dont say Order loose because of auto detaunt. I clearly said it makes your life easier.

And I pointed out that you lose a tactic slot to use it which is huge for any healer, and what you get is 25% chance on being hit to reduce Inc normal damage from one target by 25%. It's a sacrifice people do to survive, you can't go full glass cannon healer on either side and expect to survive.

okay no need to take your blabla anymore serious. the answer "dEsTrO aRe JuSt BeTtEr PeOpLe WiTh MorE SKiLl" we already have seen. If you think a actual winrate of 78% for destros in city's is just because 80% on destro better player you have one brain cell more than a git.

You are missing the point entirely. What was said isn't that Destro is more skilled than Order, but that the elite top squads of Order have advantage against the elite top squads of Destro, but Pleb vs Pleb is more in favor of Destro. There obviously is way more plebs than the elite(duh), which scewes the statistics already, but Citys also very often have mismatches i would expect any mid tier distinctly meh squad to beat soloque/last chance yolo like 95-99% of the time regardless of side. And you can't really put an mmr tracker on something, which has cca 10 concurrent instances at wierd intervals.

[knick]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

19.1220.1221.1223.1225.12

65 instances
Desto won 51 - 78% win
Order won 14 - 22% win

Spoiler:

Mythics balance was atrocious, people were 2-3 shotting people with BiS on certain careers, shaman and AM BiS was like taking another healer with two gear sets down. Ravage spam for 1500 dmg, BW wiping 24 mans on release, the game was a mess, and little was done to balance it, stop trying to be nostalgic about mythic, they had no idea what they were doing at all. The devs here have continued to balance the careers from what was left by mythic, and even though some changes have been more or less successful the factions are way more balanced than live ever was. Just drop this mythic bs.

Personal meaning? What?
I play both sides, mainly order lately, there is no way order should be struggling the way they are with the careers they have access to.
If your super duper magnum meta guild WB lose against Destro, it's because Destro played better than you, not because of auto-detaunt on shaman or whatever you're trying to blame, the same team would best you if you played on Destro and they were on Order, surprise there's better players in this game than you and me.
If people who are skilled and good at this game manage to keep a 90%+ win rate on order (insert double WH meme) is it really an order issue, or is it a player issue? Devs cannot balance player skill.


And I pointed out that you lose a tactic slot to use it which is huge for any healer, and what you get is 25% chance on being hit to reduce Inc normal damage from one target by 25%. It's a sacrifice people do to survive, you can't go full glass cannon healer on either side and expect to survive.

okay no need to take your blabla anymore serious. the answer "dEsTrO aRe JuSt BeTtEr PeOpLe WiTh MorE SKiLl" we already have seen. If you think a actual winrate of 78% for destros in city's is just because 80% on destro better player you have one brain cell more than a git.

You are missing the point entirely. What was said isn't that Destro is more skilled than Order, but that the elite top squads of Order have advantage against the elite top squads of Destro, but Pleb vs Pleb is more in favor of Destro. There obviously is way more plebs than the elite(duh), which scewes the statistics already, but Citys also very often have mismatches i would expect any mid tier distinctly meh squad to beat soloque/last chance yolo like 95-99% of the time regardless of side. And you can't really put an mmr tracker on something, which has cca 10 concurrent instances at wierd intervals.

i could say the same about the Fort theard gathering fort statistics. You have 168 random destro player fighting 136 random Order player. There wars no problem to bring %winrate as argument from order range is to strong to forts are imbalanced to buff destro. But a 24vs24 instanced scenario is not meaningful at all?

[wonshot]

Forming warbands could help order I would say.
Tonight very close fights in wb vs wb instances...but people keep solo queueing...

I was actually thinking about this earlier while doing the dishes.
I think some of the pug warband leaders for orvr are useing some auto-sort addon to spread the tanks and healers, and if we are to assume the Devs have a general rule about balance should be done towards groupplay and based on a 2-2-2 model. How about instances are actually not fireing off unless it is 2-2-2 in maybe all four groups, or atleast 3 of them (leaving room for none meta experimental assist groups or whatever)

If an Addon can auto sort groups, im sure the matchmaking would be able to not fill instances unless the 2-2-2 model was reached.
That would for sure give way less instances, order's ranged-archtype might sit out instances but in the long run hopefully it would provide more "balanced" instances, closer fights and less useless statistics because lets be real the order winrate statistics are doing nothing but proving the internal archtype ration is way out of balance on one of the realms.

Who knows, maybe this would also make tanks/healers on order seem more appealing as you would get city spots instead of grinding the 20th cityloss on an engineer. Atleast a few people in ranked scenarios are playing the needed classes, maybe this mentality would spread into 2-2-2 city instances.

Merry xmas

[lyncher12]

Forming warbands could help order I would say.
Tonight very close fights in wb vs wb instances...but people keep solo queueing...

now you cant even swap from destro to order to take advantage of 60/40 pop because of big brained lockout change (that could be a bug)

[emiliorv]

How many order full wbs (24man) have missed a city for no pops? How many 18man? 12??

Any!!

How many un destro?? I have seen full wbs (24 man) losing city pops on destro...if you dont queue in the firsts 10mins you are ****...
On destro if you want to get into city you need to group (better full 24 ) and queue asap...what ppl can get grp fast like this?? Guild/alliance wbs, high rr players, desired classes, etc... Destro solo queuers hard get any instance...

Now get your own conclusions....

[sighy]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

19.1220.1221.1223.1225.12

65 instances
Desto won 51 - 78% win
Order won 14 - 22% win





okay no need to take your blabla anymore serious. the answer "dEsTrO aRe JuSt BeTtEr PeOpLe WiTh MorE SKiLl" we already have seen. If you think a actual winrate of 78% for destros in city's is just because 80% on destro better player you have one brain cell more than a git.

You are missing the point entirely. What was said isn't that Destro is more skilled than Order, but that the elite top squads of Order have advantage against the elite top squads of Destro, but Pleb vs Pleb is more in favor of Destro. There obviously is way more plebs than the elite(duh), which scewes the statistics already, but Citys also very often have mismatches i would expect any mid tier distinctly meh squad to beat soloque/last chance yolo like 95-99% of the time regardless of side. And you can't really put an mmr tracker on something, which has cca 10 concurrent instances at wierd intervals.

i could say the same about the Fort theard gathering fort statistics. You have 168 random destro player fighting 136 random Order player. There wars no problem to bring %winrate as argument from order range is to strong to forts are imbalanced to buff destro. But a 24vs24 instanced scenario is not meaningful at all?

The difference between a 24v24 instance and forts should be quite evident... If the people about sucked at sieging the push would have failed and they wouldn't get a fort, in the first place. And you can't track/control the calibur of player that gets in the fort, which ranges from fresh noob lvl16 to 40/90+ full BiS 10 years of playing or whatever, not to mention that the result is dictated by a large room with a chokepoint. While in a city you separate cream of the crop there you can see the names of who is leading and their regulars, you get the idea of how everyone performed based on stats and if the top squads are very successful, while others are not it stands to reason they are doing something the less successful ones are not. That sort of balance always trickles down, if different people have vast differences in performance, with the exact same tools then it stands to reason one of them has something to improve upon unrelated to the overall balance of the game. (Ironic sidenote during the dark age of forts Destro was winning, when Chosen got the -25% debuff oopsie)


Ultimately i'd say that quite the few of the reasons for average joe band difference is kind of engrained in flawed fundamental game design. I don't think people play stuff like sniper engi, asw, wl, dps AM, etc, because they like to run around in optimized 24 man warband it's just that the end game "As good as it's gonna get" gear is locked behind that or a damn long grind. Could the underperforming classes be changed to better fit the meta? Sure they could, but at the same time they would lose what attracted these palyers to them in the first place. Could they make the areas in the city larger, with tighter chokepoints to allow for easier execution of ranged kite comps? That'd be a hell of a lot of work, at that point they may as well make Karaz a Karak vs Karak Eight Peaks or Lothern vs Naggarond to give you an idea of the scale how much work that would be. An exception to that is, when WH/WE had the broad severing/sweeping strikes(i think it's called that for WH), who already had their reasonably viable aoe spec gutted out of the game by a bugfix, around the same time Slayer/Choppa got their aoe cap raised to 24, which killed it.(to the obvious dismay of many)

[Rapzel]

19.1220.1221.1223.1225.12

65 instances
Desto won 51 - 78% win
Order won 14 - 22% win

Spoiler:

You dont get the point here. Mythic balanced and designed all classes over years. There was a reason to give abilitys to one class and some abilitys to other classes. All i said is that we actual shifting abilitys between realms without thinking about there original design and why some classes have no access to some abilitys.
I´m not saying game is worse than on live but also not better in all aspects.
This Order pug vs destro wb - destro win and build order wb vs destro -order win is nothing than a personal meaning of you. there are so many aspects why you win or lose a fight. just saying order loose because pug is simply wrong. I play city's by myself only on build and actual meta wb´s and this dosent mean i win all my citys

Mythics balance was atrocious, people were 2-3 shotting people with BiS on certain careers, shaman and AM BiS was like taking another healer with two gear sets down. Ravage spam for 1500 dmg, BW wiping 24 mans on release, the game was a mess, and little was done to balance it, stop trying to be nostalgic about mythic, they had no idea what they were doing at all. The devs here have continued to balance the careers from what was left by mythic, and even though some changes have been more or less successful the factions are way more balanced than live ever was. Just drop this mythic bs.

Personal meaning? What?
I play both sides, mainly order lately, there is no way order should be struggling the way they are with the careers they have access to.
If your super duper magnum meta guild WB lose against Destro, it's because Destro played better than you, not because of auto-detaunt on shaman or whatever you're trying to blame, the same team would best you if you played on Destro and they were on Order, surprise there's better players in this game than you and me.
If people who are skilled and good at this game manage to keep a 90%+ win rate on order (insert double WH meme) is it really an order issue, or is it a player issue? Devs cannot balance player skill.

Rp vs Shammy was just an example as i said. You can also say Shammy vs class XY. If you dont see the benefit of auto detaunt i cant help you. You dont need a global cd for it and dont need to refresh it all 5 sec. I dont say Order loose because of auto detaunt. I clearly said it makes your life easier.

And I pointed out that you lose a tactic slot to use it which is huge for any healer, and what you get is 25% chance on being hit to reduce Inc normal damage from one target by 25%. It's a sacrifice people do to survive, you can't go full glass cannon healer on either side and expect to survive.

okay no need to take your blabla anymore serious. the answer "dEsTrO aRe JuSt BeTtEr PeOpLe WiTh MorE SKiLl" we already have seen. If you think a actual winrate of 78% for destros in city's is just because 80% on destro better player you have one brain cell more than a git.

Still doesn't mean anything, because all these "stats" are last stage, it's like determining who's the better football team in the last 30 mins, who ever scores the last goal wins the game.

You start comparing RP and Shaman and some shitty tactic and this is your come back? Wonder who the person with one more brain cell than a git is out of us two.

[lordmrok]

@knick we did make a post about mara nerf, and ill give you the same advice the order players gave us, just stop crying change your tactics etc.

[Onigokko0101]

19.1220.1221.1223.1225.12

65 instances
Desto won 51 - 78% win
Order won 14 - 22% win

Spoiler:

Mythics balance was atrocious, people were 2-3 shotting people with BiS on certain careers, shaman and AM BiS was like taking another healer with two gear sets down. Ravage spam for 1500 dmg, BW wiping 24 mans on release, the game was a mess, and little was done to balance it, stop trying to be nostalgic about mythic, they had no idea what they were doing at all. The devs here have continued to balance the careers from what was left by mythic, and even though some changes have been more or less successful the factions are way more balanced than live ever was. Just drop this mythic bs.

Personal meaning? What?
I play both sides, mainly order lately, there is no way order should be struggling the way they are with the careers they have access to.
If your super duper magnum meta guild WB lose against Destro, it's because Destro played better than you, not because of auto-detaunt on shaman or whatever you're trying to blame, the same team would best you if you played on Destro and they were on Order, surprise there's better players in this game than you and me.
If people who are skilled and good at this game manage to keep a 90%+ win rate on order (insert double WH meme) is it really an order issue, or is it a player issue? Devs cannot balance player skill.


And I pointed out that you lose a tactic slot to use it which is huge for any healer, and what you get is 25% chance on being hit to reduce Inc normal damage from one target by 25%. It's a sacrifice people do to survive, you can't go full glass cannon healer on either side and expect to survive.

okay no need to take your blabla anymore serious. the answer "dEsTrO aRe JuSt BeTtEr PeOpLe WiTh MorE SKiLl" we already have seen. If you think a actual winrate of 78% for destros in city's is just because 80% on destro better player you have one brain cell more than a git.

Still doesn't mean anything, because all these "stats" are last stage, it's like determining who's the better football team in the last 30 mins, who ever scores the last goal wins the game.

You start comparing RP and Shaman and some shitty tactic and this is your come back? Wonder who the person with one more brain cell than a git is out of us two.

Order was just winning cities or pretty much making it a draw for like 4 months straight as well.