Goal of this post isn't making any statements, just gathering some informations (not all) about differences between realms as we got plenty of realm biased topics lately.
Destro:
25% incoming hd Aura. [Chosen]
Heavy AP drain "support" build. [Marauder]
Two extra pulls in warband play. [Choppa/Marauder]
AoE knockdown in form of Conclussive Jolt. [Marauder]
Additional cooldown reduction in form of Chopp fasta. [Choppa]
AoE wounds debuff that doesn't require 2h or speccing into it. [Chosen]
Heavy nuke 50% incoming healing debuff in form of Windblock. [Zealot]
Group morale pump for 'Ere We Go! allowing better morale game. [Shaman]
M1 that not only strips armor, but also resists. Excellent for supporting ST groups. [Zealot]
Monstro marauder is pretty tanky due to stance proc compared to other mdps. [Marauder]
Knockbacks that don't give immunities and are repeative in form of Outta My Way and Wind of Insanity. [SH/Zealot]
Order:
Group AP feed. [IB]
Extra interrupt. [WL]
+10% shared crit buff. [IB]
+25% shared parry buff. [IB]
20% AoE damage reduction. [SM]
Single target morale pump. [AM]
AoE morale drain every 30s. [SW]
Group wounds buff. [Warrior Priest]
+5% group wide crit tactic. [Knight]
+15% healing incoming Aura. [Knight]
+20% outgoing healing tactic. [Warrior Priest]
AoE +1 cast time for 5s reseting fights M2. [AM]
Morale reset attached to heavy nuke M4. [BW/Knight]
More AoE damage dealt than it's mirror due to Funnel Power. [BW]
Ability to ignore parry and block, both on targets and their guards on carrer combined with AoE cooldown increase. [SL]
Spoiler:
Personaly I think there IS balance problem, but it's more problem of order vs order than order vs destruction. I mean... it's hard to compete with Slayers as dps, they have everything, utility included. In case of destro, you can pick up mSH to compete with Maras and Choppas, it may do less dmg, but it will bring you cooldown increaser that no other destro class have, but guess who has it on order? Well, Slayer. Nerfing BHA and not allowing to use it in Assault was another pounch into the face, as previously you could do BHA+SFA when in danger in Assault to "match" Mara monstro and go back skirmish when safe to drop LA+B with occasional WW+VoM Barrage spam as morale drain train (Mara has to dance Brutality for morale drain), but thats just top of iceberg. Destro doesn't need any nerfs. It's Order who does need some work and relocation of tools between classes and minor fixes to make them more desirable to bring over stacking Slayers.
Probably the more accurate listing ive seen of the topic variation so far.
As we can see the lists on each realm are give or take, about same length and that really does highlight how both realms have a strong suit and their advantages and it is not a mirrored world where both realms have to play the same way to obtain the same results.
With that out of the way, i think your conclusion is hitting the nail. Destro is just fine, no big nerfes really needed they have had plenty. Order have some really strong, unique tool(s) but they are so overstacked on a few classes making the internal competition really rough for new contenders. A shakeup of slayer not bringing absolutely everything apart from a moraledrop(arguebly) but having hybrid singletarget pressure, healdebuff, unmitigated pressure and aoe plus utility makes it hard for any other order dps role to push the slayer out of the spotlight.
But again everything has to be seen in the bigger picture, if we take the healdebuff away from slayer it will suffer in smallerscale, just for the sake of allowing more warband dps roles to take part of warband fights. And to take it away from slayer, choppa would have to get same treatment probably. It is just a rabbithole really hard to avoid.
Instead the Devs gave rSW a rework and a place to compete, internally, and bring something new to the table for Warband-Order, moraledrain and stacking aoe dots. I personally like this approach more than trying to take some of the tools away from the overstacked few order classes and give more variety to less meta classes, as we seen with AoE armordebuff WH, rSW.
And then hopefully keep walking on this trend, instead of giving overplayed WP a 4th build when there were classes in much more dire need of dev-attention.
Monstro armor ignore, Rampage, WindBlock, Funnel power etc etc. Unique skills we will probably keep hearing. But the two realms are different and this is not a Mage+Rogue+Priest 3v3 arena mirror. Use what you have, be aware of what the enemy can bring and accept that this will never be mirrored or "ballanced" of the same reason.
M0rw47h wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:07 pm
Goal of this post isn't making any statements, just gathering some informations (not all) about differences between realms as we got plenty of realm biased topics lately.
Destro:
25% incoming hd Aura. [Chosen]
Heavy AP drain "support" build. [Marauder]
Two extra pulls in warband play. [Choppa/Marauder]
AoE knockdown in form of Conclussive Jolt. [Marauder]
Additional cooldown reduction in form of Chopp fasta. [Choppa]
AoE wounds debuff that doesn't require 2h or speccing into it. [Chosen]
Heavy nuke 50% incoming healing debuff in form of Windblock. [Zealot]
Group morale pump for 'Ere We Go! allowing better morale game. [Shaman]
M1 that not only strips armor, but also resists. Excellent for supporting ST groups. [Zealot]
Monstro marauder is pretty tanky due to stance proc compared to other mdps. [Marauder]
Knockbacks that don't give immunities and are repeative in form of Outta My Way and Wind of Insanity. [SH/Zealot]
Order:
Group AP feed. [IB]
Extra interrupt. [WL]
+10% shared crit buff. [IB]
+25% shared parry buff. [IB]
20% AoE damage reduction. [SM]
Single target morale pump. [AM]
AoE morale drain every 30s. [SW]
Group wounds buff. [Warrior Priest]
+5% group wide crit tactic. [Knight]
+15% healing incoming Aura. [Knight]
+20% outgoing healing tactic. [Warrior Priest]
AoE +1 cast time for 5s reseting fights M2. [AM]
Morale reset attached to heavy nuke M4. [BW/Knight]
More AoE damage dealt than it's mirror due to Funnel Power. [BW]
Ability to ignore parry and block, both on targets and their guards on carrer combined with AoE cooldown increase. [SL]
Spoiler:
Personaly I think there IS balance problem, but it's more problem of order vs order than order vs destruction. I mean... it's hard to compete with Slayers as dps, they have everything, utility included. In case of destro, you can pick up mSH to compete with Maras and Choppas, it may do less dmg, but it will bring you cooldown increaser that no other destro class have, but guess who has it on order? Well, Slayer. Nerfing BHA and not allowing to use it in Assault was another pounch into the face, as previously you could do BHA+SFA when in danger in Assault to "match" Mara monstro and go back skirmish when safe to drop LA+B with occasional WW+VoM Barrage spam as morale drain train (Mara has to dance Brutality for morale drain), but thats just top of iceberg. Destro doesn't need any nerfs. It's Order who does need some work and relocation of tools between classes and minor fixes to make them more desirable to bring over stacking Slayers.
You pretty much lumped 5 classes into one row so doesn’t look as severe. Self morale pump is one of the biggest issues to be address to obtain M4 within 60s. On the popular classes in city and baseline.
Cooldown reducer balance between the two realms. Forget to mention SM one isn’t guaranteed with a press of a button on top of being one short.
Those are the two critical issues to be dealt with, not the whole list and majority of city balance and why classes like Shaman can over perform easy and have a spot over AM in city. When you can put Two BO and Choppa in same group for 3 CDR to perma spam EoV equivalent.
Goal of this post isn't making any statements, just gathering some informations (not all) about differences between realms as we got plenty of realm biased topics lately.
Destro:
25% incoming hd Aura. [Chosen]
Heavy AP drain "support" build. [Marauder]
Two extra pulls in warband play. [Choppa/Marauder]
AoE knockdown in form of Conclussive Jolt. [Marauder]
Additional cooldown reduction in form of Chopp fasta. [Choppa]
AoE wounds debuff that doesn't require 2h or speccing into it. [Chosen]
Heavy nuke 50% incoming healing debuff in form of Windblock. [Zealot]
Group morale pump for 'Ere We Go! allowing better morale game. [Shaman]
M1 that not only strips armor, but also resists. Excellent for supporting ST groups. [Zealot]
Monstro marauder is pretty tanky due to stance proc compared to other mdps. [Marauder]
Knockbacks that don't give immunities and are repeative in form of Outta My Way and Wind of Insanity. [SH/Zealot]
Order:
Group AP feed. [IB]
Extra interrupt. [WL]
+10% shared crit buff. [IB]
+25% shared parry buff. [IB]
20% AoE damage reduction. [SM]
Single target morale pump. [AM]
AoE morale drain every 30s. [SW]
Group wounds buff. [Warrior Priest]
+5% group wide crit tactic. [Knight]
+15% healing incoming Aura. [Knight]
+20% outgoing healing tactic. [Warrior Priest]
AoE +1 cast time for 5s reseting fights M2. [AM]
Morale reset attached to heavy nuke M4. [BW/Knight]
More AoE damage dealt than it's mirror due to Funnel Power. [BW]
Ability to ignore parry and block, both on targets and their guards on carrer combined with AoE cooldown increase. [SL]
Personaly I think there IS balance problem, but it's more problem of order vs order than order vs destruction. I mean... it's hard to compete with Slayers as dps, they have everything, utility included. In case of destro, you can pick up mSH to compete with Maras and Choppas, it may do less dmg, but it will bring you cooldown increaser that no other destro class have, but guess who has it on order? Well, Slayer. Nerfing BHA and not allowing to use it in Assault was another pounch into the face, as previously you could do BHA+SFA when in danger in Assault to "match" Mara monstro and go back skirmish when safe to drop LA+B with occasional WW+VoM Barrage spam as morale drain train (Mara has to dance Brutality for morale drain), but thats just top of iceberg. Destro doesn't need any nerfs. It's Order who does need some work and relocation of tools between classes and minor fixes to make them more desirable to bring over stacking Slayers.
You pretty much lumped 5 classes into one row so doesn’t look as severe. Self morale pump is one of the biggest issues to be address to obtain M4 within 60s. On the popular classes in city and baseline.
Cooldown reducer balance between the two realms. Forget to mention SM one isn’t guaranteed with a press of a button on top of being one short.
Those are the two critical issues to be dealt with, not the whole list and majority of city balance and why classes like Shaman can over perform easy and have a spot over AM in city. When you can put Two BO and Choppa in same group for 3 CDR to perma spam EoV equivalent.
To begin with, I don't think morale game is as important as it was before so called "morale nerf" in term of power, but it still has fun factor attached to it.
Currently tanks are way more focused on rotating Distracting Bellows than morale bombing with Raze/Daefening Bellow!/No Escape. Keeping enemy melee stack with constant -50% is obvious thing to do. Now, all CH/BO will take the tactic so they can built morales fast and start their defensive M2 rotation faster, so they can regain morales fast in case of death, or because it opens them ability to participate in offensive morale drop. I think the ability to "participate" is huge and shouldn't be underestimated to begin with.
In case of rotating M2 (Distracting Bellows), we need to remember they doesn't stack or overlap. If you use DB on target with 1 second of DB remaining it will have no effect and you will have no morales left. Thus, it only matters how first and second tank can pump themselves, because rest would get that morales anyway, we could even say that for the rest of tanks in DB rotation its wasted tactic slot, but hey, they can reach M3 faster and join the bombing party.
"Participation" in morale bombing is probably the most important here, not because it's super strong, but because its... simply fun. Most people who played tanks on both side, would rather argue that destro tanks are more FUN to play, because they can feel impact of morale bombing themselves rather than just watch others do it. I think it would be fine to mirror self pump for IB and SM to make classes more appealing to the masses and fixing shortage of order tanks, as for Knight its no go area with existence of Solar Flare.
About CDR I partialy agree, we discussed that in the past on ror discord.
Whispering Wind is harder and more annoying to use, it side effect can be often seen as drawback (free immunity) rather than positive as you won't always find "proper" target whenever you need to reduce CDs for your group. This ability certainly needs reworking to make it more like BO equivalent (AoE and silence moved elsewhere) to make playing SM more fun and less like a full time job. This issue was raised many times.
Now about Chopp Fasta. Back in the day I've asked about mirroring it to WH and moving to WE to hit few birds with one stone (more utility for WH/WE, and new dps ability for Choppa making him more "equal" to Slayer in terms of being dps carry rather than utility dps), it was rejected after a bit of discussion on both forums and discord. Tho, I still think it's way to go despite such heavy rejection of mirroring.
However, both those "issues" are more design than balance problems.
Out lining different skills each side has is only the tip of this iceberg.
Things could change based on how some classes get reworked/balance changed but there is a big difference between the 2 realms for group comp due to how most classes are played/specs needed for WB play.
From a dps stand point for WB play most classes are wanted for AoE pressure but aoe specs between classes are not created equal. Destro has an easier time forming pug groups because of specs that are more pug friendly.
Comparing destro to order for dps you have some equal and some not so equal match ups and depending on what game mode you are playing will make it harder or easier for some comps. (like forts or cities)
BW and Sorc are fairly equal both ranged both squishy both do good ranged damage.
Engie and Magus same boat as Bw and sorc but magus has slight edge not having stats allocation on gear needed for a damage stat meaning intel vs Ballistics/ws. Most if not all engie sets have some sort of ws stat on them even sets that are geared towards the magic damage side giving magus a slight edge in being more survivable and still keeping high damage.
Mara and WL both can AoE well or single target mdps WL has some issues with pet survival when it comes to things like WB vs WB with all the aoe flying around and mara if monstro for aoe is more tanky due to less armor pet on monstro proc.
Choppa and Slayer are fairly equally wanted for WBs both for AoE slayers have the defense bypass with Rampage and cooldown increaser with shatter limbs and Choppa has chop fasta and can displace order fairly easy with GTDC.
SW and SH this is where it really gets messed up. SW and SH were both recently reworked AoE spec for SH is the melee tree giving destro 3 mdps that can aoe and 2 of them are fairly tanky msh and mara. SW aoe got the 65 foot treatment and really is only effective in skirmish stance making them a squishy ranged aoe that can easily be displaced by one GTDC.
WH and WE are in an odd spot they really only are wanted if someone is building a single target party for city and anything else you are basically on your own and is why you usually see these 2 classes just grouped up with each other in orvr. They have no real meaningful aoe to offer a wb in rvr so are usually not wanted.
So we end up with this for aoe specs destro 3 good mdps order is 3 good rdps. This is why we see things like Forts defenses where range is king because of choke points and order wins more. Then we go to cities where these range dps can't really kite well because of objectives and the destro melee ball having 3 potential classes to pick from making it easier to build wbs and more diverse wb comps becomes a major factor in city win rates.
The above issue is why ranked solo match making was changed to only match rdps vs rdps or mdps vs mdps. When you would get 2 mdps vs 2 rdps it was a stomp because the mdps would just roll over them most of the time. If you wanted to win you had to be an exceptional rdps and even then one false move you are dead.
Even if you distribute more utility across order you will still have the discrepancy of destro being more melee heavy aoe and order being more ranged heavy aoe.
This is one of the few MMOs that doesn't have exact mirrors across realms, which is going to make perfect balance difficult. Even if you had that, if a skill(s) is buried on a class that's rarely played or undesirable, it's harder to utilize for that side.
Seems like these threads are a dime a dozen now. Population seems to have sorted itself out as everyone said it would, seen some 60% order during NA time and sometimes almost hitting 50/50 during EU. Order has won a few cities lately. SC pug pain is real on both sides. We're in a pretty good place.
Naelar wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm
Order classes have plenty of synergy. But they don't use them.
I agree, but it is still most efficient and profitable to crutch on one class. Slayer
The best warband comps have at least 4 slayers. And like maybe 1 WH or 1 SW. The issue is the disproportional leaning on which Order has to rely on for its meleeball.
I love my WL homies but a lot of them have bad habits of leaping out of guard range, and out of the meleeball which provides 2 uses.
Meleeball physically blocks other melee players from hitting your backline - allowing your casters to freecast - and the meleeball provides a base for which all your guards and dps can stick together - alleviating dmg to your dps.
I'll say this. Having a ranged heavy portion of your dps via Order side is hell to guard, cause your tanks have to try and create a maleeball/barrier and guard ranged players in the back at the same time.
I would be highly interested to see this game work with a guard range of like 100ft, but that might break a lot of other things too so i dunno.
Its a nice list and points out how organized groups have a lot of choices for how to compete.
However, Order as a whole is, and always has been, drowned by the lead weight that is RDPS.
Until Order actually brings a decent comp of Tank, RP/WP, Slayer and play to their strengths, no amount of balancing will fix it unless ppl are outright banned from playing RDPS and are forced into tank, heal, Slayer.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.
