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Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

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Phantasm
Posts: 688

Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#1 » Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:22 am

Edit on 23.02.2024:

I did quick review of WL Slashing Blade and Whirling Axe range regarding recent Abilities System changes and new results are:

Slashing Blade = 32 feet - +1 feet

Whirling Blade = 37 feet - +10 feet

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I did some testing in the morning and I encountered some wierd behavior of mara aoe skills, i did some more testing, compared with same skills on WL and the results are:

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In other words, what tooltips state has nothing to do with the actual range of skills in action. A member of the RoR Discord suggested that some of these skills have been adjusted in patch notes in the past. While this is understandable, inaccurate tooltips and the discrepancies between the Mara channel and WL channel provide another reason to abandon the old Ability System for a new one. This would make it easier to fix these bugs or incorporate corrections that have been made in the past.

Test results as videos included, thanks to Sruula and Disconnecter for help making them. Extra tests for Mara pull, Choppa Bring it on and GTDC:

TE is 69 ft,
Bring it on - 30 ft,
GTDC 45 ft.
Additionally, having a testing site for both realms with a grid of stationary targets, each spaced five feet apart, would be immensely helpful. This setup would allow any skill to be tested in terms of its range or the shape of its area of effect

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Last edited by Phantasm on Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Omegus
Posts: 1385

Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#2 » Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:53 am

FYI if you get access to the test server then you get access to a special chat command that gives you the distance between you and your target. When we were testing AOEs at the start of the year, a common issue was how inconsistent ROR had been with how the distances are actually measured.

For distance purposes, each player is a cylinder (might be a capsule, makes no real difference here) with a radius of 5ft. If imagining it top-down, imagine a circle around each player/NPC/etc with a 5ft radius. For targeted abilities, the client uses the distance between the outside of these two cylinders to determine if an ability is in range and will enable/disable the ability based on that range check. This means that a 5ft melee ability actually has a 15ft range if measuring from the middle of your player to the middle of the enemy - the "5ft" range is based on the distance between the shape surrounding the attacker and the enemy.

For AOEs though it all goes to hell. Some seem to measure from shape to shape, some were middle-to-middle, some were shape-to-middle, etc. I'm hoping Dalen was able to normalise all of this as part of the rework as it seemed to be a big part of why some AOEs feel wonky on the current live server. On top of which, some ranges were changed in patch notes (as mentioned above) without tooltips being amended just to make it more confusing.

I'm hoping the new version will be shape-to-shape to match how targeted abilities work, even if this means the radius of some AOEs needs to be reduced. Providing it works consistently and the tooltips are updated then we should be in a good place.
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normanis
Posts: 1306
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Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#3 » Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:01 pm

this maby is reason pulls work so wierd, we ar 5 feet fat cilinders on ground (not actual sizes)
also its describe why i can still hit ppl who is behind me. because its diferent actual range, what u see.
p.s acording to code its work as intend vs reality
if i understand corectly
"Iron Within, Iron Without!"

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Omegus
Posts: 1385

Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#4 » Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:30 pm

Being able to hit people behind you with attacks is RoR bug that was fixed with the new system (at least it was when I was testing earlier in the year) as the attack angle of an ability is now properly respected when moving. No more shooting arrows out of your arse.
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lumpi33
Posts: 422

Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#5 » Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:22 pm

Omegus wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:30 pm No more shooting arrows out of your arse.
That was the best thing about playing SW :roll: :lol: Thanks for another nerf :cry:

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inoeth
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Posts: 513

Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#6 » Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:41 pm

lumpi33 wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:22 pm
Omegus wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:30 pm No more shooting arrows out of your arse.
That was the best thing about playing SW :roll: :lol: Thanks for another nerf :cry:
not a nerf, a fix. now noobs have to actually get good and cannot kite everybody to the end of the world.

lumpi33
Posts: 422

Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#7 » Wed Aug 16, 2023 4:59 am

can you do a test with pulls? choppa/mara/wl range?

I have my doubts that choppas gtdc range is what the tooltip says. Do it stationary and while the choppa is running around only getting close for a moment.

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Phantasm
Posts: 688

Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#8 » Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:24 am

lumpi33 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 4:59 am can you do a test with pulls? choppa/mara/wl range?

I have my doubts that choppas gtdc range is what the tooltip says. Do it stationary and while the choppa is running around only getting close for a moment.
I added Mara pull range test and Choppa Bring it and GTDC ranges.
TE is 69 ft, Bring it on - 30 ft, GTDC 45 ft.

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Omegus
Posts: 1385

Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#9 » Wed Aug 16, 2023 9:52 am

Phantasm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:24 am
lumpi33 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 4:59 am can you do a test with pulls? choppa/mara/wl range?

I have my doubts that choppas gtdc range is what the tooltip says. Do it stationary and while the choppa is running around only getting close for a moment.
I added Mara pull range test and Choppa Bring it and GTDC ranges.
TE is 69 ft, Bring it on - 30 ft, GTDC 45 ft.
If TE is coming up as 69ft in your tests - which I assume is using Tether to try and work out the ranges, then that speaks more to the inaccuracy of the ranges provided by Tether. The only distance information Tether has access to is the distance between your icon on the minimap and another icon on the minimap (same figures used by Enemy) and that data has always been inaccurate. This is why the test server command to get exact mid-point to mid-point distances was so useful as it's the only way of getting accurate distance data.

As TE is a targeted ability, the "correct" distances should be either 65ft (shape-to-shape) or 75ft (mid-to-mid) as they are the only two values that make sense.

To get a more accurate positions for both players (sub-inch) then each player would need to run the script below. It prints out the new position (XY only) when they move. The only issue is sometimes the client doesn't trigger this when walking backwards, but strafing works fine.

Code: Select all

/script function PrintPos(x, y) EA_ChatWindow.Print (towstring ("Position: x="..x..", y="..y)) end RegisterEventHandler (SystemData.Events.PLAYER_POSITION_UPDATED, "PrintPos")
And to turn it off:

Code: Select all

/script UnregisterEventHandler (SystemData.Events.PLAYER_POSITION_UPDATED, "PrintPos")
Zomega: RR8x Zealot

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Phantasm
Posts: 688

Re: Mara vs WL range of main aoe skills

Post#10 » Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:30 am

Spoiler:
Omegus wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 9:52 am
Phantasm wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:24 am
lumpi33 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 4:59 am can you do a test with pulls? choppa/mara/wl range?

I have my doubts that choppas gtdc range is what the tooltip says. Do it stationary and while the choppa is running around only getting close for a moment.
I added Mara pull range test and Choppa Bring it and GTDC ranges.
TE is 69 ft, Bring it on - 30 ft, GTDC 45 ft.
If TE is coming up as 69ft in your tests - which I assume is using Tether to try and work out the ranges, then that speaks more to the inaccuracy of the ranges provided by Tether. The only distance information Tether has access to is the distance between your icon on the minimap and another icon on the minimap (same figures used by Enemy) and that data has always been inaccurate. This is why the test server command to get exact mid-point to mid-point distances was so useful as it's the only way of getting accurate distance data.

As TE is a targeted ability, the "correct" distances should be either 65ft (shape-to-shape) or 75ft (mid-to-mid) as they are the only two values that make sense.

To get a more accurate positions for both players (sub-inch) then each player would need to run the script below. It prints out the new position (XY only) when they move. The only issue is sometimes the client doesn't trigger this when walking backwards, but strafing works fine.

Code: Select all

/script function PrintPos(x, y) EA_ChatWindow.Print (towstring ("Position: x="..x..", y="..y)) end RegisterEventHandler (SystemData.Events.PLAYER_POSITION_UPDATED, "PrintPos")
And to turn it off:

Code: Select all

/script UnregisterEventHandler (SystemData.Events.PLAYER_POSITION_UPDATED, "PrintPos")
For pure science, yes, your script can be helpful, but my first post isnt about science. Right now, only Enemy range check (friendly targets) and Tether (as a comparison) provide any information about distance between targets. Using widely available tools I provided numbers for various skills that seem odd. Thats all I can do to add body to players "feels" and "thinks". Because those "feels" and "thinks" seem to be accounted for future balance attempts.

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