Recent Topics


[BO] THC and some other things

For submitting topics for approval by the moderators for full discussion.

Moderators: Balance Forum Mod, Developer, Management, Communications, Moderator, Game Master, Web Developer

User avatar
Posts: 1494

[BO] THC and some other things

Post#1 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:59 pm

I saw that anarchypark made a proposal about THC, but I didn't really like it and don't agree with some of his reasoning (I'm also not sure if he has a 40/40 BO). So I figured I can at least try to propose something. I played the class since my beginning here, in all types of groups and warbands, so I guess I know a thing or two about it.

This proposal is focused around THC, but it's also about dps snb BO in general, because making THC available for snb again would simply bring back the old state of 2h BO and no one wants that.

The long explanation, wall of text incoming:
The main issue: removal of THC for snb. Everyone knows why this change was made. No one wanted to run as 2h bo, there was no reason to. So it was decided to mirror the ability like it is for SM. You have to realize that we can't talk about THC without talking about other things, so bear with me.

Firstly, my issue is from a lore perspective. Yes the game has to be balanced, but I believe that lore plays a part in this game (or that it should at least, otherwise every class can have every ability, and that just waters down diversity and the unique traits/feeling of classes and races in general). BO is a brawler tank, there is a reason why THC was available for snb. They are the biggest and baddest mofos around, so I can't imagine they can't swing a puny 1h sword or axe with great abandon (or even dual wield them, wink wink ;) ). Also, there is a reason why SM has Ether dance only for 2h. It just wouldn't make much sense if it was available for snb. It's purely because of lore reasons. Swordmasters of Hoeth wield big ass swords, simple as that. It's in the lore.

Ok now that that is out of the way, let's get to balance.

If you were to revert the change to THC things would go back to the state they were before obviously, only now it would be even worse because of You Wot ability. I actually don't know why this ability is not 2h only. I just can't find a reason to use it as snb anyway. It's in a dps tree, and it's mainly a tanky ability, increasing your defenses, armour and resists. All the things that 2h lacks (since he can't buff his defenses in any other way), and that's ok. But since you can't use the main dps ability (THC) with snb anymore, there is no reason to spec so far up the tree (unless you want some kind of a half baked "dps" build, which lacks too much burst, or you want some tanky tank build that doesn't have much in the sense of utility. In other words, it's pointless).

So obviously the problem is that 2h didn't have the survivability, and snb was tanky enough while having great damage dealing capabilities and support. How do we solve this? Improve the 2h survivability (this is basically ok at this time with You Wot) and reduce the snb damage of course. I don't agree with anarchypark that you should reduce the block that BO gets if he wants to go dps. The point of taking shield is getting block, i.e. tankiness. And where's the point in reducing tankiness if you take the shield precisely for that reason? What should be done instead is reducing damage. There are a couple of ways to do this.

First and foremost, make You Wot 2h only. This is pretty obvious. If a snb bo had an access to such an ability (if THC change was reverted) they would become completely broken. That change would also make it not too desirable to spec into full tree if you want to keep your utility. Namely if you want to have your KD and CHM (and snare, which is another topic), although KD is not too necessary (some groups much prefer not in da face). I personally take KD for burst when 2h. Basically NidF is for your premades, and KD is for pug killing. This would also open up a possibility for a tri-spec, something you see very very rarely in BOs (if at all).

Ok so now snb wouldn't have such a huge increase in both defenses and damage. But there is another thing, and that's crit. Crit is basically your must have if you want big damage numbers, everyone knows this. With full dominator gear (which is still bis cuz of taunt proc, and will pretty much always be unless changed) and subjugator 1h sword, BO gets to 9% crit. Add to that full genesis set for another 3%, and you're at about 12%. Definitely not a small amount when you take into consideration Gork Smash and renown, getting you up to 30%+ (you can add sentinel talisman to that and get up to 40%, pretty stellar numbers for a tank). I personally never used full genesis set, not even on 2h. I don't like losing so much defense, since I'm a tank after all. But in theory you can get pretty high amounts of crit, and I would guess that's what good premades use in those tournaments and what not, when you know your healers can keep you alive. This amount of crit is quite high for a tank if you ask me, especially a snb tank. Although if you are using all the gear I mentioned, and all the offensive tactics, you pretty much become a dps class with heavy armuor. I must say I don't see many BOs running around like that, because you simply melt to any kind of pressure (without a super hardcore group to save your ass).

So what I would propose is a change to Gork Smash. If you are using a shield, Gork Smash gives you 5% and 15% crit. Or, when using shield it gives you 5% and 10% crit. So basically you would reduce crit by 5-10% for snb. Additionally, you can reduce bonus crit damage on Stab you gooder when using shield. Although I never really saw people run that on snb back in the day, since you had aoe snare (and loudmouth). But if you really feel it's necessary, you can make bonus crit be 10-15% for snb. Or make the tactic 2h only if you are really worried about snb using it (but again it's not a choice I would consider really).

Let's talk about block now. Block is very important for tanks, and the more you have the better. Currently, a BO can reach about 37% with full defensive gear (renown and tactic included). I haven't tried getting more, but perhaps you can get above 40% with new weapons and what not (also invader gear, which I will never have anyway, not in a long while). Now, you wouldn't really be running this gear if you want to be more hybrid/dps. In full dominator gear I mentioned earlier, BO gets 22% with subj shield. If you ask me this is not a super huge amount. If you take some other block rings, you can get about 27%. People shouldn't forget that BO doesn't have any way of buffing his defenses other than CHM and HTL (and You Wot). Basically he only has channeled abilities, which can be interrupted. That's why he has block tactic. He can't buff parry in any way. Now I'm not an expert on other tanks, but pretty much all of them have ways of buffing defenses, either through abilities they have or can spec, and tactics they have or can spec.

So I don't see a problem in BO having access to CHM while snb. Keep in mind that I propose a reduction in damage while keeping the tankiness, not the other way around. That's why I don't see any reason to change anything about BOs block, it's really the only thing keeping him alive. If you want big damage, go 2h, very simple. You get 20% more damage with 2h already, and with my proposals you would get more crit and crit damage as well.
In summary:
Revert the change to THC, make it available for snb again.
While using shield: Gork Smash gives you 5% and 15% crit; or it gives you 5% and 10% crit.
While using shield: Stab you Gooder gives 10-15% bonus crit damage. Or make it 2h only.
Make You Wot 2h only.
I hope this didn't break any proposal rules, and that devs can consider the outcry of BOs out there for their beloved class that was changed so much in the last few years.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest