[Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

[Azarael]

The mistake you make is in thinking that I want you to use Prayer of Absolution/Covenant of Tenacity as a bread and butter stance.

Prayer of Absolution and Covenant of Tenacity work the way they do to prevent WP and DoK being shut out in situations where they can't frontline and must backline instead. If I see someone tanking in PoA or CoT, I identify them as either a daredevil or ignorant.

All the people suggesting returning the armor and a range reduction to the WP/DoK are missing something: I can already force the WP/DoK to frontline, and bring more of the skills in, by using Prayer of Devotion / Covenant of Vitality. The idea here wasn't just to externally balance the classes - it was to internally balance them by linking in all the dead skills from the Grace/Sacrifice tree into healing, rather than letting (most) people heal off Salvation skills alone, and to force them to play according to concept by using their melee healing and their casted healing together. Thus, I have no motive whatsoever to allow (most) WP/DoK players to revert to ignoring the Path of Grace/Sacrifice in heal builds - even if the mechanism forces them to position in the front line.

Now, I'll head this off at the pass:

- The version of WP/DoK on the server is not final and it's going to change.

The reason it hasn't changed? Client control. The big problem at the moment is that the strength of S'R and TE spam causes a concept violation, as zumos2 earlier pointed out, because spamming S'R and TE is easy. This is especially an issue in PUGs. Devotion and Vitality are not meant to be melee healing stances, they are meant to be the main healing stance, incorporating both casted and melee heals, and as long as S'R and TE are spammable, they will not be.

Now why am I mentioning PUGs in the balance forum? Because without resolving the PUG issue with Radiance and Transfer Essence spam (which also brings down DPS WP/DoK at the same time!) I cannot move to address any flaws that may exist with using the WP and DoK against heavy RDPS setups, because any buff will increase issues in lower tier play.

So, while I'm reading this topic to see what people are saying, I will not be making any further moves on WP/DoK until client control. At that point, S'R and TE will cost more AP and Divine Strike / Consume Essence will be introduced to fill the gap. S'R and TE should remain strong group heals, but with much more limitation, so that they can be used as panic buttons but with a faster extraction required, rather than as a main spam.

[Tesq]

the first half part of the you're post is likely true in small skirmish where dok/wp weren't balanced fine pre changes, (tough i see most of teh changes and the happynes as bias over 2x dok because i hardly saw 2x wp on order side) vitality spec regardless require a guard something the party composition dosen't allow you in rvr; the class changes rebalanced wp/dok for sc only.

I do agree and im fine with have 1 stance where dok/wp are cloth coevalent for situation where they cannot melee like keep sieges heaviliy restricted to those situation only; but the mid path stance need a tweek for caster; wanna force me melee? you have alredy done that so why i cant spam heals instead spam skills? incorporate the heals in the same melee stance would help tweek down the heal from the melee hits which is op in small skirmish which would subsequentially make class complete. You both cast and both melee in cc as a t1 dok/wp can do most of times.
That would also allow to play melee but ignore a damage contribution to heals actually balance the heals value of the melee skills better than what are now with no downside.
Still a healing class if it need to heal melee dosen't need to have guard (and either must do not do damages)

Play melee/hit stuff is a thing but do damages is another one.

Atm in small skirmish the changes actually moved from heal spam to melee spam with detaunt still be a king in the class plays or forced ppl to guard the healer, which also doing damages and free 1 slot more for a rdps which increased all the damages for all the group or a offensive AM/SH which add even mroe dmg and even mroe heals.

This changes fixed neither dok/wp be mandatory for a party as NOW they are even more because:

1-heals are not debuffable
2-no set back
3-not interrupt (exept channeling)
4-free 1 rdps spot for the party.

[Azarael]

You pretty much repeat a problem of which I'm already aware. The reason WP and DoK don't use casted heals in Devotion/Vitality as much as they should is because S'R and TE are way too powerful. In build 2 of the changes, where S'R and TE were weakened (to the point of complaints), I actually got the correct feeling from the class - which was that I had to use my casted heals even at melee range, and use S'R / TE only when they were at their most efficient.

[Tesq]

You pretty much repeat a problem of which I'm already aware. The reason WP and DoK don't use casted heals in Devotion/Vitality as much as they should is because S'R and TE are way too powerful. In build 2 of the changes, where S'R and TE were weakened (to the point of complaints), I actually got the correct feeling from the class - which was that I had to use my casted heals even at melee range, and use S'R / TE only when they were at their most efficient.

why ? you alredy solved that, by force ppl to hit to buff their willpower !

My problem in melee cast are set back, silence, rkd and the problem thet enemy can exploit my de taunt re apply if i have no guard

-make mid dok/wp not guardable but give them a 50% dmg reduction or leave them guardable but give them a good dmg reduction that dosen't stack with guard

-if the willpower buff duration is bringed down but buff all the willp value then you can allow even same range for heals as you are forced into melee regardless every let's say 5-10 sec.

-aoe rec is a fail, i cant spam aoe heals if my aoe rec dosen't work properrly; remove dmg but make it undefitable. And make rec channeling an ap rec from soul essence istantly so that i can keep heals with both melee hit and casting skills.

-make me ingore set back leave interrupt and silence because you can melee heals; then as a coutner make melee heal be debuffable or lower the value.

-also discrepancy in efficency between dual weild and 1h +book/chalice; tough if you remove the set back i could bear it.

That would force wp/dok caster to melee hit to keep heal and stance dance from backline stance just when you reach melee range.

[Azarael]

You're missing the point. Once you are in melee range there is no motive whatsoever to use casted heals or to extricate preemptively because S'R and TE heal for about 800-1k, undebuffable, to the entire group, for 35 AP. That efficiency is what breaks the design. It's an untargeted, cheap and very powerful healing spam.

[Tesq]

You're missing the point. Once you are in melee range there is no motive whatsoever to use casted heals or to extricate preemptively because S'R and TE heal for about 800-1k, undebuffable, to the entire group, for 35 AP. That efficiency is what breaks the design. It's an untargeted, cheap and very powerful healing spam.

ye i know which is why i alredy told you in the thread

the currenc formula is :

dmg contribution + x % increase + heal value

to be changed into

dmg value = dmg / heal value = heal

where heal value is a 75% of the value of the same type of heal casted skill and dmg value is 25% of the missing value or a melee skill. (exemple: SR TE will use 75% of the g-heal value ; the st channeling need to be balance by his own tought ap st heal and melee channeling will be too powerfull togheter. Eventually wp/dok need a spamable melee skill which st heal).
this way you avoid ppl get double or triple contribution for melee heals by str/ mastery point / x% on dmg based increase

You then make everything
1-all melee heal can crit (crit chance is give by healing crit chance not melee)
2- all debuffable by heal debuff

then if the class is still op you make a general heal nerf which is the fasted way to handle the problem as every skill now will have proportional value and same drawback. So SR and TE will heal 75% of the g-heal not more, not less and do the remaining 25% as dmg.

variables as heal debuff for melee skill due to be easily CC by enemy can be soft if there is the need or hardcap to a X for melee skill.

You are forced into melee by will buff, skills all use same contribution from 1 path which is the first. Heal are possible by ignoring set back; heal crit is required for both type of skill.

[sanii]

You pretty much repeat a problem of which I'm already aware. The reason WP and DoK don't use casted heals in Devotion/Vitality as much as they should is because S'R and TE are way too powerful. In build 2 of the changes, where S'R and TE were weakened (to the point of complaints), I actually got the correct feeling from the class - which was that I had to use my casted heals even at melee range, and use S'R / TE only when they were at their most efficient.

Its not only that S'R and TE are way too powerful , its the fact that in order to maximize S'R and TE spam you would slot divine fury/fanaticism/murderous intent which in turn would crap on your casted heals making them almost a waste of a cooldown. Maybe an idea would be to change the effects that those tactics have depending on the stance you are in ( i assume impossible without client control)

Vitality/Devotion - Increases your damage and healing by 15% (instead of 25%) and makes you immune to setbacks in addition to removing the -20% healing output [This can be accompanied with a nerf to S'R and TE as your casted healing becomes stronger aswell - numbers with everything naturally adjustable]

Righteousness/Celerity - stays the same , so as to not affect dpswp/dpsdok ( i think when you put the change for nerfed melee healing when df/mi/fntc tactics were slotted , that is where the complains came from ?)

Also i feel how something along the lines of a hot/hots in the form of a tactic or abilities that would work like this : Heal your entire party for 250%(random value) of the damage you have dealt in the last 5 seconds , over 15s . Or any form of Fallout/Echo effect on your normal heals that mirrors a certain amount of damage done into healing over time. Reason for this is that melee healing feels VERY spiky can go wildly from being borderline oppressive OP without cc/control towards entirely useless if you are being tossed around the map. This way you do not need to put everything on powerful shotgun heals. This might entirely be unnecessary tho if you can incorporate casted healing in a good way into melee healing wp/dok.

[Culdu]

I already wrote how i would adjust melee heal to get it work(some pages befor-Page9 #83). After even more bgs playing it on melee & cast it is a lot of fun, much more than just melee. Main problem, not worth it(as long as you don't care about add grp). Hitting a tank with transfer essence heals more than any cast I could use(without dmg tactics). Perhaps better with wp due to the 20% outgoing buff. Would still strongly recommend to adjust the healing from transfer essence to the target, that if you have a weak target you heal a lot and should keep on hitting, but if you don't have a weak target you should just hit for essence and keep casting. With different tactic sets the player can then chose if he is looking more for weak targets or is casting more(to better fit in the grp setup). Adjusting the skills that all 2 hits you have to do 2 casts for example and pushing it in a fixed rota is nonesense and has nothing to do with skill. Choseing every global cooldown what, in exactly this situation on the field, is the best ability to use(and that very fast), and to get on the right place on the battlefield to use it . Thats skill. So instead of forcing people to use specific skills in a specific rotation due to ap/cooldown, make it more interesting to use this or that in the specific situation. (solutions on my first thread, the long one )

Finally i don't think that meele heal would at all work really good in random bgs due to mass range, at least on destro side you have a lot of bgs vs ~ 8 range who just kill anything which doesn't has good grp support, on order side you are the only one who goes in for melee. Which is another point why backline should also work in small scales.

Greetings Starilas

[Pafsanias]

Sigimund again if you want to be a viable RF healer with 8RFGen you need to spam RF regen abilities. Therefore you need to be in front lines and the reduction of armor will not help you at all. And warrior priest supposed to be the small AoE healer while the other two healer were the main healers.
Now my suggestion to dev is to be a casting healer in med to close range i.e reduce the healing range abilities of WP while having the old armor values. Also you can increase the Rf regen proportionally to the enemies near the WP. Start with a base amount of X RF regen and then we can suggest the values.

[Azarael]

I reiterate that I will not give you an option to ignore your melee side. Your mechanic is to power your casted heals through meleeing. That Salvation/Wrath was the dominant spec (and that only because of AoE detaunt in Wrath tree) was a joke.