Cleansing Wind redesigned

[Atropik]

They also, like mentioned above, give classes acess to toolkits that their class wasn't designed to have acess to. They also contribute to the Kite instead of Fight mentallity wich imo isn't healthy for the game.

Sw wasnt designet to have access to core 20 cd rkd compared with ini debuff, you know, Engie wastn designed to have 5 sec stagger, all classes in this game wasnt designed to face stagger effect, BW wasnt designet to have access to WoP, and sorcs Wop was designed to trigger in a much longer rotation. Mara,Wl,bg were not designed to have access to 1.5k armor debuff, and shammy/am wasnt designet to have all the dots they have now. xd

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

Do you mind sharing your perspective and why you deem the current iteration of CW is reasonable?
It equates 1/6th of a DoK M2 an entire warband can pickup without any drawback whatsoever.

To make a long story short, CW/RD gives a chance to gimp classes in pug scs. Otherwise we will see only rdps there.

Its a bit exaggerated, yes - however I am inclined to ask you the same question.
If not only because you are hellbent on arguing out of a soloroam perspective in both threads.

I spent years fighting 6/6 on Russian Official, still have hours of video vs KappaPride or vsInvasion. And the main lesson ive learn - 2 min cd is far more then enough to pick someone off in a close 6/6 fight, but the main issue - in most cases, you will have only 1 cgd to react on being assisted - and ud better spend it on detaunt. After that, only pressure over time wins the fight,rd/cw has nothing to do with that.

Entire wbs will brainless stomp you anyway, or they will not, - depending on your position mostly, but not on abilities you use. They will never coordinate their cw/rd cause of equip/class/skill difference between players, that is not an issue.

If I learned something from my 6v6 sessions back on live in regards to these abilities, then that they do have the potential to prolong fights that would otherwise have ended a lot sooner without them - i.e. the "After that..."-part of yours would have less often occured.
RD and CW - the latter to a lower extent given the overall predominance of mdps - increase the amount of mistakes not only you, but your entire group is allowed to make.

Generally speaking, if renown abiltities bear potential to become necessities they - as far I as I am concerned - are broken.
In my book RD and CW are bascially TB-lite; something that was added to the game to ducttape Mythics initial horribly wonky design that got worse with every second until shutdown, reaching its pinnacle with DF/WF/various bugged or otherwise broken LotD items/dupes.

In regards to the first sentence outside the spoiler: Larrison *cough* - or RoR's version of Larrison, Xiu and entourage.
Yes, its positioning > everything. But these abilities allow for mistakes in every single format; you can still achieve saves if you pop RD+CW and leg it where you should otherwise have died.

As to the second sentence outside the spoiler: We have had - and likely still have - exactly that happen on RoR, let alone on live. Coordinated warbands are coordinated, using RD to push in unison is the very thing that did and likely still does decide clashes between warbands.
Using CW on an individual basis is the very thing that [Abbd.: effortlessly] alleviates the pressure in morale bombs, among other situations - e.g.: if you fail to break up a raze bomb every bit of damage you can negate will make or break an engagement, i.e.: you should die if you fail to break up a raze bomb and not potentially survive with some of your groups because you manage to push a dumbfire cleanse.

E: Words and stuff.

[Tesq]

i agree with @morf regard more the combo with RD and the rp cost for CW.

especially his combo with RD.

Immune + total cleanse is a thing and will even be a thing till the cost for use both is not exagerated or either you can only take 1 of the threee renown skill

What especially make CW good is x se the istant cleanse. There is no other way to balance CW if not makeing loose stats in return and so (renown points).
Be able to ista cleanse like that and basically avoid certain death at the pretty easy conditions ppl focussing healing you (base thing target go down you keep heal him).
As per RD thread 10 rp point for such ista life saver are too low. However while RD give also an immunity for x sec CW only cleanse you in that moment
so i think CW should be changed keep in mind how RD will be deal with.

for exemple if RD would cost 30 rp then CW could cost 20 or 15.

I assume that ppl understant that have access to a ista life saver is no where near to use a 3k potion. And even if it was near the chain/combo of multiple stuff with such good eff should be tone down either on one or on the other one.

I am for the idea that they should all be balanced in RP cost (but not all have teh saem cost) but also you should be able to have 1 of those only. This also make pick the right choice harder.

[footpatrol2]

Wrote something. Sorry... changed my mind. This is edited.

[Noobster]

I don't share the opinion from OP for the follwing reasons.
"CW require minimal skill to use. You see some debuff's on you? Press the button and you are free. Only skill this skill require is to setting properly your Buff Head addon"

First, that is not an argument because every skill need to be pressed the important think is to read the fight correctly and know when you need to press it. With a 2 or 5 min cd you need to choose this skill wisely. If you just hit the button when you see some debuffs / dots you will miss it 10 seconds later when the next rotation start. That brings me direct to the next point. CW alone can be a "moment" life saver but when you don't change your playstyle / movment when you grp members don't react correctly after that in an intense fight you will die 5-20 seconds later, depends on the pressure you receive.

"CW is impossible to counter. It is instant cast and as such can not be removed from you. Your opponent don't have a chance to do something about it. It is punishable especially for DoT's based characters."

Thats true there is no direct counter to cw. But tbh ability cd are much smaller then cw cd. The "counter" here is. Don't stop your pressure and dont wait 3 minutes till you try this target again.



At least you need to invest 30 RR points to get 2 cd and some heal (regarding on the pressure you receive less pressure = less healing less chance to die after cw / high pressure high heal and high chance to die after cw because in most cases high pressure don't stop after cw because your position is exposed (otherwise you wouldn't receive the high pressure).
Sorry for my english i hope everybody understand what i try to say .

[freshour]

Spoiler:

I am all for upping the skill cap of a game as long as that is what it really is. CW is sort of a must on a melee DoK, usually I have 2 pt's in it just because you are such a target that without eventually you just go boom .

But it's cool that a renown ability is under discussion. Would be kinda cool if these started to get looked into as some over perform, some under perform, and others are kinda pointless.

Cool idea for sure!

Add to the conversation at hand with valid arguments, or don't post. This is not a general discussion, it is focused and specific discussion of the OPs assessment of the issue, and the points being made to counter it.

[Stmichael1989]

I have no issue with cleansing wind as is, and that's coming from someone with a 40/40 shadow warrior.

At most, the debuffs removed have a cooldown of 30 seconds. The vast majority of them have cooldowns of 10 seconds or less. It provides no immunity, has a 2 minute cooldown, and requires 20 renown points to get a 2 minute cooldown. 30 if you want the extra heal.

The counterplay? Throw the debuffs right back on. He can't use it again for 2 minutes. The skill in using something like cleansing wind is determining when the right time for it is. Do you use it now when a sorc lines up a timestamp burst? Or do you save it for when that melee train charges at you and vomits every debuff known to man onto you?

Given the prevalence of cheap, low cooldown debuffs from every class, cleansing wind is far from needing a swing from the nerf bat.

[Gerv]

Discussion duration complete, thanks for your suggestions and time, tune in next time, before you make a thread in general these threads were unlocked, but no-one chose to post.
Locked.