[AM/Sham] AP Drain

[footpatrol2]

The recieving end is not broken. You can cleanse this. If you nerf this ap drain you will cause unforseen problems associated with balance. The ap drain costs a lot of ap to cast. If you cleanse this, that ap drain turns into a drain on the shaman/AM....which are classes that traditionally have problems with ap... There is risk involved with using these drains. They have to land, they have to drain.

Experimental mode shaman/am removed some of the dependence on their ap drains/feeds to function which I'm not even sure was a good idea. I've never been a fan of experimental mode.

If you bring AM/shaman in your group comp you got the added benefit of reducing overall damage via ap drains. But you could cleanse those drains also and remove that added benefit which would in turn reduce overall healing, which makes wiping the group easier.

What I'm getting from this thread is players can't be bothered with cleansing ap drains.
If you remove the aspect of draining your causing one less thing you need to cleanse.

I play a group comp that can't cleanse ap drains and I think that is fine because I have built in ap feeds to help mitigate this. Also have the time players limp in on ap drains and don't stack it.

[Collateral]

Spoiler:

Why would not focusing your group against ap drain have to be SO very punishing for you? Why would it have to be your fault if you didn't necessarily have means to fight against ap drain? The chances you will run into ap drain in rvr are pretty big, and so are the chances you will run into everything else, so can you have a group that's good for everything? What if some players are soloing in rvr, and their opponents recognize them as a good player that can be a threat? They simply perma ap drain him and voila, the player can't play the game anymore. The same thing can apply in scs of course. Imagine a premade fighting against some pugs who are not bad players, but just don't have a perfect group, and perhaps there is an imbalance with healers etc., you can lock out the good players, making it even more imbalanced.

I would agree with robin, making it insta drain seems more fair. You can still shut down a player for a period of time if you had 2 am/shaman, and you can still break their rotations etc., but it won't be perma shut down 'gl mate you can't play the game anymore you're unimportant cya later'. It doesn't have to be the numbers he said, but I think it can be worked on.

This has a complete lack of legibility, incorporates arguments based on premade v pugs, please follow the rules posted in the announcement section, this is your first warning.
Gerv

[dansari]

Exactly. Playing against an ap drain is abysmal. If I get super punted, it's a matter of me getting back to the fight so I can keep playing; if I get ap drained, I'm pretty much useless for however long the ap drainer wants me to be useless. It is very punishing with very little risk involved, which is why it needs to be tweaked.

When posting please provide reason why playing against the drain is absymal, and how it counters the points made by others, your opinion, without fact does not carry in this forum as per the rules here:
viewtopic.php?f=96&t=11105

Gerv

[NSKaneda]

Exactly. Playing against an ap drain is abysmal. If I get super punted, it's a matter of me getting back to the fight so I can keep playing; if I get ap drained, I'm pretty much useless for however long the ap drainer wants me to be useless. It is very punishing with very little risk involved, which is why it needs to be tweaked.

Or, you know, for as long as you remain in a spot where you can be targeted.

When SW/SH starts targeting you, do you just stand there and take it?

When you feel first dots of Eng/Magi rotation, do you just ignore them and take it?

When BW/Sorc starts a rotation on you, do you just give up and wait for the respawn button to appear?

If you answered "no" to any of these, then why do you (and others) want ONE skill to be nerfed just because it's too hard for you to change your position / retreat or cleanse it?

Other classes can effectively shut down a player for a long period of time as well. It just so happens that people are too lazy to change their ways to counter AP drain.

[Tesq]

it's not a question of spot, they are just dot, you move and they also vmeo and keep dot you 5 secon and you are full dotted by am/sh + the rest and the last one is the ap drain.

in live the cleanse was random so you always had a chance to cleanse anything, here on ror is sequential you cleanse what is made for first so you know those heal debuff and ap drain?

good party will never let you cleanse them, to repeat myself.

-20% striketrough
-how cleanse work
-drain working every 1 sec

ap drain on the one who get use is definetly much stronger than in live. All the change made the am/sh regen ap management better (now finally ok) but made it too hard compared to live design here on roor.

@foot, we are not seekign to nerf the gain of the ap drain, just how much is get drained away frome the target exemple you still get 180 but target loose only 90. This is not a nerf for the purpose of reduces ap am/sh get just to allow natural regen to work as it was on live.

[Morf]

I believe it was designed to shut down a player for the entire fight if the opposition ignore's ap drains. You can't ignore the ap drains and you shouldn't. You can Cleanse These AP drains. You can control your group and break LoS and force the opposition to come to you. blah blah lots of tricks. Almost every group comp has access to 2 healers if not more if they take a dps healer. which is a advantage of a dps healer. The easiest counter to the drains is to cleanse it.

We will never know the exact reasons for ap drains but the reason why i believe you are wrong in thinking it was designed to shut down a player for the entire fight (and im glad u understand that is how it currently works) is how it was originally implemented on AOR, i repeat the original AOR ap drain never shut someone down because it drained every 3 seconds which would often result in no ap drain as most the time the player would be able to get off a rotation or use an ability with a cast time before there ap bar was empty which is the reason it was changed here on RoR to be a more reliable source of ap for the 2 healers who "were" (pre ab ex mode) lacking in ap.
The second reason is because it doesnt and never did have some sort of CC immunity linked to it.

Or, you know, for as long as you remain in a spot where you can be targeted.

When SW/SH starts targeting you, do you just stand there and take it?

When you feel first dots of Eng/Magi rotation, do you just ignore them and take it?

When BW/Sorc starts a rotation on you, do you just give up and wait for the respawn button to appear?

If you answered "no" to any of these, then why do you (and others) want ONE skill to be nerfed just because it's too hard for you to change your position / retreat or cleanse it?

Other classes can effectively shut down a player for a long period of time as well. It just so happens that people are too lazy to change their ways to counter AP drain.

So what your argument boils down to is that every class should always stay 100ft+ away from any rdps ? im not sure what sort of groups you play in but just because you have a engi/sw/sh/magus/sorc/bw whatever rotation on you doesnt mean you should run for the hills and always keep 100ft distance, the advantage melee have over range is to get on top of them, applying pressure so they are more concerned about surviving then trying to attack you, staying away (which is basically what you are saying the counter is) will get you no where.

Other classes can effectively shut down players correct but these methods (cc) all have short durations and provide an immunity timer so you cannot be permanently affected by it which cannot be said for ap drains.

Cleansing ofc is an option but "competent" players will always make sure it is well covered so it doesnt get cleansed.
Against some random nub all you will have to do is fire of an ap drain to screw them over, against "competent" players a debuff, a dot and then an ap drain and they aint cleansing it, they cleanse the debuff invoking a 5 sec cd on cleanse, 5 secs later they cleanse the dot and 5 secs later they are back where they started if they even have any ap left to do anything.
If by chance the player has specced for CW then you just wait 10 seconds to go again knowing that CW will only be up again in either 2 mins or 5 mins, its very simple to bury an ap drain or a debuff.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

@ Morf
I said I agree to change the drain to how AoR works, option 1.

I really don't think the drain should only drain 90 and feed 180. That is a MASSIVE nerf. I think it should drain 180 and feed 180. Remember you can cleanse this. The Ap drain is on a 10 sec cooldown. All cleanses are on a 5 sec cooldown.

If you need more cleansing then bring more classes that can cleanse like a dps healer. This provides value to a dps healer which is a good thing.

Again, the shaman/AM is not just a healer it is also a dps class if spec'd into it. If you take away the offense 180 drain component on the dps AM/shaman your decreasing their baseline toolkit which makes them attractive pick for a group.

Do we still need a example of a group based on ap feeds? I can provide a video example and group comp.

The cleanse argument has been debunked, the onus is now on respondents to prove with evidence how a reasonable group can reliably deal removal of an ability that can be significantly buried. Continued statement of this cleanse point by anyone without reasoning or evidence will be warned once and banned.

Gerv

[Fey]

I can't understand your rules for posting on these balance forums; and with threats of bans I really hesitate to say anything at all. No ability is going to be cleansed when properly buried. This is a mechanic that is essential for classes that use DoT's and debuffs. No ability that is adequately buried or covered should be cleansable. This is a basic facet of the game.

I've read this debate over the days, and again, I don't care to follow arbitrary rules when this should be an open discussion. I'm not in middle school anymore, and this, "structured", forum discussion craps all over people who want to speak up. I don't understand the problem either. This one is totally over my head. Leave it alone, imo.

[Bozzax]

I find the argumentation AP-drains are covered with a debuff & dot proof is kind of unexpected tbh.

As a DPS maybe but as heal wasting, 3s, 2 GCDs and 50AP to cover a 180 leech simply isn't worth it in 95% of the cases (grouped). Me being below par at healing and not playing dps could be the problem though but drain goes on early, off cd and on secondary target.

Maybe if you build a real 6v6 drain group sure this can be a thing but to be honest I haven't seen one that isn't a random pug group of decent 4-5 dps AMs (more common) and sure they can AP starve one or two guys but I'm much more troubled by decent 4-5 BWs or SWs assisting (killing).

Drains are like snare annoying but there is disrupt, 2x ap potions, ap recoup abilities, ap/s gear, ap group regen abilities, ap recoup morales/ renown cleanse, ability cleanse, morale cleanse and group cleanse.

Still a 3s tick should be reinstalled

[roadkillrobin]

Well the difference with perma AP drains and being dotted up or perma snared is that when you're depleted of AP you are no longer able to play the game as you need to use abillities. While taking heavy dmg you can detaunt, your tank can swap guard to you or use Challange and you are still able to attack. Lots of classes also have snare immunities, charge. The perma AP drains basicly have no effective counter play.