[SL/Chop] Fierceness/Even The Odds

[Arteker616]

So far points made:
1) The initiative debuff in the current game environment is extreme. While the buff of weapon skill, is a stat increase hard to find.
2) The crit change may not stack with additional ability values and could be unique.
3) The % dodge/disrupt increase can be covered by other abilities

Discussion going forward:
- Duration of abilities and cooldown, value of initiative debuff, potential adjustm

Spoiler:

ents to toughness aspect.

In general I like the idea of abilities with high cooldowns instead of spamable ones. Especially when their benefit is situational. I feel like thats something were a good player can shine. In this context I would leave the cooldowns at 60 sec.

Every order tank can buff thoughness with values somewhere between 80 and 120. Assuming the value from the opening post we would then see a marginal benefit in thoughness when more than 3 or 4 players are within 20ft range of the slayer. 20ft radius is not a lot meaning that if you kite out of the fight to reduce incoming damage this ability is kind of pointless.
This leaves the option for using it before you engage but due to the short duration, it's not particulary amazing there either. I would just suggest to remove the range component from the spell. This give you a strong thoughness buff (~210) which would create a benefit even when other buffs are present. But wouldn't turn you into a tank due to the short duration and high cooldown.

If you reduce the Initiative debuff by half it would still significantly increase your chance to be crit (to somehwere around 25-30%) when you're still on merc gear. But it might become useable with better gear. Not a big fan of that solution though. I dont like it when the usefullness of an ability is so direcetly linked to gear progression.

Even with no CD these 2 abilities would not be meaningful to spam since they cost GCDs and have a short duration. To fire them at the exact right moment is where the skill is not by them being on CD 90% of the time.

"All" other abilities that are on 30-60s are extremely powerful stuff these 2 are just ridiculous in comparison. Also they are masked most of the time by significantly more reliable buffs

Weapon skill is reliably provided by BO or SM stat steal and the ini debuff makes every application a serious gamble.

Toughness is reliably provided by BO or SM stat steal and auras. So if you are Pro and times every application 100% you'll enjoy 10s of slightly more tanky every once in a while. It is even questionable if it is worth the GCD to try.

As I see it either you make them both significantly better on 60s CD or you drop CD to 2x duration and only make small tweaks such as reduce the ini debuff to standard debuff levels.

I like the latter more since 1min OP abilities are worse for balance

Spoiler:

weapon skill in the case of the black ork is provided by follow my lead, stat steals is not reliable . since its a proc . wich doesnt stack.
AS someone who runs a choppa , the most dreaded momment using bring da pain is when a Good SW drop me a eye shot (wich is the best ini debuff in my opinion). In general that momment ends with u buying the farm due top the assured damage u gonna swallow due to ur ini being droped to almost 0%.

So, what do you suggest, do you agree with the proposal or do you disagree, do you have an alternative solution, please, contribute to the discussion, you identify that the debuff is large but we have come to that realisation already.
Gerv.

[Skyy]

Imo Even the Odds's biggest problem is that it takes a gcd. It's purpouse is to make you survive right? But a far better way is to release your rage, or detaunt or simply charge/flee away. So if your are still alive 3 gcd later you might not need Even the odds any more.. My point is when the preassure is on and you feel like "**** i take too much dmg" there is no way I start with pushing Even the Odds.

Things that might make Even the Odds usefull (imo):
1. remove gcd
2. make it also release rage
3. increase effectivness (give massive toughness, or +parry/dodge/disrupt, or +initiative)

My take on Fierceness is similiar to previous posts. WS is simply not good enough stat and -ini is WAY to massive. Agree with finetuning the numbers a bit. +180ish ws, -60ish ini

[nebelwerfer]

Spoiler:

these two core abilities could be more like the giantslayerr dmg buff, meaning it would be a passive buff to your toughness when you are close to multiple foes/hitting more than one target/taking direct dmg from more than one target.
you can toggle on and off like giantslayer buff.

fierceness could also be like that, passivly buffing your ws as long as you are hitting something continiously. Like 15 ws a stack until 10 stacks, losing 5 initiative a stack.

Only one of these buffs available at a time. Hmm

Edit: giantslayer dmg buff is "reckless gamble", gives 100 extra dmg and you take 50 dmg on all your abilities

In this discussion you have to respond to the train of discussion, read the entirety of the pages and then post a response that continues the discussion. Do not ignore the discussion, without refuting the changes proposed before you.
Gerv.

[Darosh]

Imo Even the Odds's biggest problem is that it takes a gcd. It's purpouse is to make you survive right? But a far better way is to release your rage, or detaunt or simply charge/flee away. So if your are still alive 3 gcd later you might not need Even the odds any more.. My point is when the preassure is on and you feel like "**** i take too much dmg" there is no way I start with pushing Even the Odds.

Things that might make Even the Odds usefull (imo):
1. remove gcd
2. make it also release rage
3. increase effectivness (give massive toughness, or +parry/dodge/disrupt, or +initiative)

My take on Fierceness is similiar to previous posts. WS is simply not good enough stat and -ini is WAY to massive. Agree with finetuning the numbers a bit. +180ish ws, -60ish ini

I'd opt for either 1. or 2. - cetainly not both at once, given it'd be an oh-****-button that'd allow to completly ignore rage for the most part and that'd would be too good of a tool to bait bursts and CDs -, much less for 3. given that, by virtue of the toughness rework, the buff is actually noticeable, and would be even more noticeable if people considered stacking toughness instead of wounds if they ever were to min/max for a group that attempts to take on more/sustain themselves better in smallscale (its basically a poor man's situational DSU atm).

Alternatively you could merge EtO and Fierceness:
A) Turn it into a group toughness buff that yields better returns than the kotbs aura for its duration. The value would have to remain situational (require a modicum of awareness) and be upped by a tiny amount to push it over a treshold that atleast makes it look fancy/worth the gcd.
Or have its CD - drastically - reduced and the toughness brought down to exactly the kotbs levels to resemble an alternative to the aura that needs active refreshment. ~ or similar, I hope you see what I am trying, but miserably failing, to get to.
(Or a wounds buff alltogether, maybe?)
B) Turn it into a moderate-to-high, yet still situational WS buff with the -50ish ini attached to it but without gcd for a quick (low duration; to require proper timing) increase in dmg within bursts, whilst putting it on an even higher cooldown or making it so that it spreads the -50ini to the group and (moderately to drastically) lower the CD in turn ~ missmanagement = major, negative impact on group performance.
[Abbd.: B) TLDR: on demand nuke with arguably extremely high cd, but outside gcd or high uptime groupbuff with major drawback.]

You could also work out a way to utilize ranges in the process of changing the skill; make it harder to acquire fullstacks but therefor up the gains moderately to drastically (depending on how difficault it is to achieve fullstack).

Either way, the inidebuff - I think its safe to say everyone agrees with that - has to be taken care of, one way or another.

E:Words and stuff.

[th3gatekeeper]

My point is when the preassure is on and you feel like "**** i take too much dmg" there is no way I start with pushing Even the Odds.

My take on Fierceness is similiar to previous posts. WS is simply not good enough stat and -ini is WAY to massive. Agree with finetuning the numbers a bit.

Spoiler:

This would be my vote:

[Fierceness]: Increases BOTH Weaponskill and Initiative by 120 for 20 seconds. 60 sec CD.

[Even the odds]: buffs the users WOUNDS by 35ish for each enemy within 30 feet up until 6 enemies. Again 1 min CD and duration of 10 sec.

Makes both these not redundant over what other classes can provide to the Slayer. Even the Odds, could give a maximum of 2,100 HP for 10 seconds - a nice survival tool combined with Fierceness now increasing both Weaponskill and Initiative by 120 for 20 seconds provides both damage (weapons skill) and counters the crit meta (via initiative).

I think this would accomplish more of what you want to see with the class. Just my perspective.

Follow the discussion, there has been debate that a flat buff to the Slayer and Choppa are not happening. There needs to be a drawback to the ability to openly increase the stats as discussed in regard to Fierceness. If you want to post an alternative solution like this, you need to provide reasoning why the initial discussion is redundant, why wounds over toughness.
Gerv.

[Darosh]

My point is when the preassure is on and you feel like "**** i take too much dmg" there is no way I start with pushing Even the Odds.

My take on Fierceness is similiar to previous posts. WS is simply not good enough stat and -ini is WAY to massive. Agree with finetuning the numbers a bit.

This would be my vote:

[Fierceness]: Increases BOTH Weaponskill and Initiative by 120 for 20 seconds. 60 sec CD.

[Even the odds]: buffs the users WOUNDS by 35ish for each enemy within 30 feet up until 6 enemies. Again 1 min CD and duration of 10 sec.

Makes both these not redundant over what other classes can provide to the Slayer. Even the Odds, could give a maximum of 2,100 HP for 10 seconds - a nice survival tool combined with Fierceness now increasing both Weaponskill and Initiative by 120 for 20 seconds provides both damage (weapons skill) and counters the crit meta (via initiative).

I think this would accomplish more of what you want to see with the class. Just my perspective.

I fancy the wounds buff, but the Fierceness version might be too much of a blanket buff to pull off.
If you min-max a slayer and sit at high RR, you'd have, with that version of Fierceness, literally no issues - as you don't have drawbacks - approaching WS softcap (~923 postbuff, if my math isn't too sloppy).

I think some kind of drawback should remain in place to not overtune the class.

Abbd.: And to not completly remove the requirement of awareness/coordination.

E:Words and stuff.

[th3gatekeeper]

My point is when the preassure is on and you feel like "**** i take too much dmg" there is no way I start with pushing Even the Odds.

My take on Fierceness is similiar to previous posts. WS is simply not good enough stat and -ini is WAY to massive. Agree with finetuning the numbers a bit.

This would be my vote:

[Fierceness]: Increases BOTH Weaponskill and Initiative by 120 for 20 seconds. 60 sec CD.

[Even the odds]: buffs the users WOUNDS by 35ish for each enemy within 30 feet up until 6 enemies. Again 1 min CD and duration of 10 sec.

Makes both these not redundant over what other classes can provide to the Slayer. Even the Odds, could give a maximum of 2,100 HP for 10 seconds - a nice survival tool combined with Fierceness now increasing both Weaponskill and Initiative by 120 for 20 seconds provides both damage (weapons skill) and counters the crit meta (via initiative).

I think this would accomplish more of what you want to see with the class. Just my perspective.

I fancy the wounds debuff, but the Fierceness version might be too much of a blanket buff to pull off.
If you min-max a slayer and sit at high RR, you'd have, with that version of Fierceness, literally no issues - as you don't have drawbacks - approaching WS softcap (~923 postbuff, if my math isn't too sloppy).

I think some kind of drawback should remain in place to not overtune the class.

Abbd.: And to not completly remove the requirement of awareness/coordination.

Spoiler:

Slayers are still rather squishy and die pretty quick... so thats the drawback?

I think you meant Wounds BUFF (not debuff)...

If you are approaching softcap... then something like "+180ish ws, -60ish ini" wouldnt work as that provides MORE WS....

If its "too good" just adjust it down.. So +100/+100 or +80/+80... IDk... im less a fan of "debuffing" yourself for a buff... Maybe thats just me though... I very much enjoy using CDs for buffs, but dislike taking more damage to get more buffs...

You are not going to walk in here, ignore all the previous discussion of risk/reward for an ability change and make blanket statements with no supporting evidence. This discussion does not care for what you like, provide reasoning for your points that continue the discussion.
Gerv.

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

This would be my vote:

[Fierceness]: Increases BOTH Weaponskill and Initiative by 120 for 20 seconds. 60 sec CD.

[Even the odds]: buffs the users WOUNDS by 35ish for each enemy within 30 feet up until 6 enemies. Again 1 min CD and duration of 10 sec.

Makes both these not redundant over what other classes can provide to the Slayer. Even the Odds, could give a maximum of 2,100 HP for 10 seconds - a nice survival tool combined with Fierceness now increasing both Weaponskill and Initiative by 120 for 20 seconds provides both damage (weapons skill) and counters the crit meta (via initiative).

I think this would accomplish more of what you want to see with the class. Just my perspective.

I fancy the wounds debuff, but the Fierceness version might be too much of a blanket buff to pull off.
If you min-max a slayer and sit at high RR, you'd have, with that version of Fierceness, literally no issues - as you don't have drawbacks - approaching WS softcap (~923 postbuff, if my math isn't too sloppy).

I think some kind of drawback should remain in place to not overtune the class.

Abbd.: And to not completly remove the requirement of awareness/coordination.

Slayers are still rather squishy and die pretty quick... so thats the drawback?

I think you meant Wounds BUFF (not debuff)...

If you are approaching softcap... then something like "+180ish ws, -60ish ini" wouldnt work as that provides MORE WS....

If its "too good" just adjust it down.. So +100/+100 or +80/+80... IDk... im less a fan of "debuffing" yourself for a buff... Maybe thats just me though... I very much enjoy using CDs for buffs, but dislike taking more damage to get more buffs...

As to the words, yes, ofc it was meant to be "buff".
As to the squishyness, I am playing slayer myself - group provides.

If you pug... well, its a drawback - the pugging that is, the class is just fine in any format you play it in, provided you have a group. (As the old saying goes: "A slayer is only as good as his group.")

As to the approaching of the softcap, the math above is with the current Fierceness, it'd be a little (=> tiny bit) less with your iteration. However my focus in that argument was the drawback (the lack thereof) in combination with the approach of the softcap. Not the approach on its own.

As to your take on it, I get where you are coming from.
But, slayer = best life, living on the edge - if you die, blame your group, if your group gives you ****, pretend you were roleplaying => win the game.

E: Words and stuff.

[Arteker616]

In general I like the idea of abilities with high cooldowns instead of spamable ones. Especially when their benefit is situational. I feel like thats something were a good player can shine. In this context I would leave the cooldowns at 60 sec.

Every order tank can buff thoughness with values somewhere between 80 and 120. Assuming the value from the opening post we would then see a marginal benefit in thoughness when more than 3 or 4 players are within 20ft range of the slayer. 20ft radius is not a lot meaning that if you kite out of the fight to reduce incoming damage this ability is kind of pointless.
This leaves the option for using it before you engage but due to the short duration, it's not particulary amazing there either. I would just suggest to remove the range component from the spell. This give you a strong thoughness buff (~210) which would create a benefit even when other buffs are present. But wouldn't turn you into a tank due to the short duration and high cooldown.

If you reduce the Initiative debuff by half it would still significantly increase your chance to be crit (to somehwere around 25-30%) when you're still on merc gear. But it might become useable with better gear. Not a big fan of that solution though. I dont like it when the usefullness of an ability is so direcetly linked to gear progression.

Even with no CD these 2 abilities would not be meaningful to spam since they cost GCDs and have a short duration. To fire them at the exact right moment is where the skill is not by them being on CD 90% of the time.

"All" other abilities that are on 30-60s are extremely powerful stuff these 2 are just ridiculous in comparison. Also they are masked most of the time by significantly more reliable buffs

Weapon skill is reliably provided by BO or SM stat steal and the ini debuff makes every application a serious gamble.

Toughness is reliably provided by BO or SM stat steal and auras. So if you are Pro and times every application 100% you'll enjoy 10s of slightly more tanky every once in a while. It is even questionable if it is worth the GCD to try.

As I see it either you make them both significantly better on 60s CD or you drop CD to 2x duration and only make small tweaks such as reduce the ini debuff to standard debuff levels.

I like the latter more since 1min OP abilities are worse for balance

Spoiler:

weapon skill in the case of the black ork is provided by follow my lead, stat steals is not reliable . since its a proc . wich doesnt stack.
AS someone who runs a choppa , the most dreaded momment using bring da pain is when a Good SW drop me a eye shot (wich is the best ini debuff in my opinion). In general that momment ends with u buying the farm due top the assured damage u gonna swallow due to ur ini being droped to almost 0%.

So, what do you suggest, do you agree with the proposal or do you disagree, do you have an alternative solution, please, contribute to the discussion, you identify that the debuff is large but we have come to that realisation already.
Gerv.

First and foremost . i agree with parts of the proposals . But it failed to adress some things i believe .

Bring da pain +fiercenes:

this would be my proposal

. Both abilitys buff the ws . But they realy make realy hard to keep up the choppa , and slayer up in 6 man or a wb (heavy aoe enviroment). my best bet , and easiest solution is keep the ability as it is .but take away the ini debuff or Half it . my proposal would be actualy to make it Actualy Buff the choppa slayer init instead of decrease it.




Even the odds+Come get it : this one is tricky ,Mostly because whatever conclusion we get u gotta remember something . Choppa got actualy a tactic for it im still here . so we need to think if the assosicated tactic could be game breaking in favour of choppa before take a decission or we going to changue the tactic all together .

As choppa slayer u cannot have it as pure non cd skill unless u got a very serious increase of the thoughnes value (u lost alot of dps and not doing ur job aka kill things while its supposed to be the role of of ur tanks buffs support making ur life easier). and 10 secs duration is nothing realy while 6 on vs 6 .

i think best options would be extended the duration of buff to 30 secs , keeping the actual value of thoughnes provided. And current 1min cd.

Or Raise the thoughnes to a max 100 points per enemy so u can get 600 thoughnes buff at max for 10 seconds ,and decrease ability cd to 30 seconds .

Iknow last one can sound op but gotta remember it not gonna benefeit the choppa slayer untill both are down on the mele brawl. they would still very vulnerable to ranged fire.

[Reesh]

So, my 2 cents after reading whole thread.

*First and foremost, as some suggested and it's required for those abilities to be used at all - remove GCD from them.

*Now for both abilities - increase the duration to 15s, decrease cooldown to 45s.
(if both above combined are too much, then just remove the GCD requirement upon ability usage)

*Regarding even the odds and come and git it - increase the toughness portion by 2x (it isn't too high by raw calculations) of the regular one per stack. That would make it significant as an ability worth of using. Although, I like the idea with buffing wounds more.

As it goes to Fierceness and Bring da pain - that's a tricky one.
*My first idea was an stat swap = weaponskill to -> melee power, with the stack value increased by 15 points from the regular amount that WS buff had, while keeping the self ini debuff, since such buff would require a drawback.
*Second, was an area initiative steal per stack, buffing the slayer/choppa and debuffing those around.. Which basically would increase by a tiny bit survivability and crit potential. As a drawback - reduce 100 wounds of the user by it's duration time.
*Third, increase the AA haste by 10 (or 15), whilst keeping the ini debuff portion.

Basically, we can figure out a pretty cool combination of a buff ability with significant drawback, but overall it has to be worth of using at all.