[Review] [SW] Scout Tactics

[footpatrol2]

ya that's a direct damage increase. Shortening it's cast time...

I don't know why your so focused on fester. The power of scout or big shoota is in no quarter, Aimin quickly.

If you want to blow up tanks then fester and poisen arrer.

So I personally think the scout/big shoota is situationally built for keep defenses especially while the keep doors are up. The spec shines in that environment. Which doesn't make it a bad spec at all. It is situationally really good at the role it is designed to be played in. The problem arises when player's want to take a spec out of the environment/role it's been designed for and put it into a different environment.

It can be done but it is not ideal.

You can take it in a roaming environment and it worked better when you had rkd but now you don't so... I just see this as a buff my class post when it doesn't need buffing. It needs it's rkd. What am I really saying thou? I'm saying you need your utility back not a ap damage increase, which is why I'm against a ap damage increase. I personally didn't see SW having a baseline RKD as a bad thing at all.

Player's also self identify to a spec which is a problem. Don't do that. You swap spec's dependant on the situation your in. I swap spec's like 3 times a day or so depending on the situation. If your too lazy to swap spec's well...

[lefze]

ya that's a direct damage increase. Shortening it's cast time...

I don't know why your so focused on fester. The power of scout or big shoota is in no quarter, Aimin quickly.

If you want to blow up tanks then fester and poisen arrer.

So I personally think the scout/big shoota is situationally built for keep defenses especially while the keep doors are up. The spec shines in that environment. Which doesn't make it a bad spec at all. It is situationally really good at the role it is designed to be played in. The problem arises when player's want to take a spec out of the environment/role it's been designed for and put it into a different environment.

It can be done but it is not ideal.

You can take it in a roaming environment and it worked better when you had rkd but now you don't so... I just see this as a buff my class post when it doesn't need buffing. It needs it's rkd. What am I really saying thou? I'm saying you need your utility back not a ap damage increase, which is why I'm against a ap damage increase. I personally didn't see SW having a baseline RKD as a bad thing at all.

Player's also self identify to a spec which is a problem. Don't do that. You swap spec's dependant on the situation your in. I swap spec's like 3 times a day or so depending on the situation. If your too lazy to swap spec's well...

It's only a damage increase in fringe cases of WW parties. And if every single balance discussion is gonna revolve around stuff being broken with WW I say make a proposal to get rid of WW, not gut every other class. And the power of scout is most definetly not in No Quarter, and no, an example of a 4 SW/SH party blowing up pugs is NOT in any way representative of how the spec functions under any kind of real pressure.

Again, cast time decrease is a utility change, not a damage one. While the rkd benefitted the party of a scout SW in various ways, the actual function of it for the SW was simply to keep the target in range for the cast of fester to even go off, or keep a target from reaching you and forcing a cancelled cast. Hence, lack of rkd is fine, but having the bread and butter skill of the class be nearly impossible to pull off is not. I agree we don't need a damage increase, we need an ability that we can reliably get off.

While some people might identify to a spec, class, faction, or whatever, my opinions are not based on bias towards any of these. I understand you might have some SH bias in a discussion like this, and it's getting kinda obvious. But the classes are NOT comparable. You are a big fan of the words AP damage and moraledamage from what I've read, and don't even pretend to not know what SH has that SW lacks. Even if SH has subpar "AP damage" compared to SW in scout/big shooting (which if fully specced) still leaves the SW hanging because of stance mechanic contra pet mechanic, the M4 shenanigans SH can pull off is what really puts SH ahead, especially in situations where you would run 4 in a party like you argued with earlier. Which is just not feasible with scout SW. And this again comes down to the fact that fester is uncastable is most situations.

[Panzerkasper]

It's only a damage increase in fringe cases of WW parties. And if every single balance discussion is gonna revolve around stuff being broken with WW I say make a proposal to get rid of WW, not gut every other class. And the power of scout is most definetly not in No Quarter, and no, an example of a 4 SW/SH party blowing up pugs is NOT in any way representative of how the spec functions under any kind of real pressure.

A castime decrease is always an effective damage gain, WW yes or no doesnt matter. If the casttime gets decreased by 1sec you gain a cooldown in the rotation, so the damage should also be decreased, otherwise the arguement just comes down to: gif more damage.

If FA would be underperforming damage wise, i would say ok, but it's not.

[footpatrol2]

We blow up premades in SC's thou not in a 6v6 environment. 3 or 4 Big shoota's or Scout SW group comp can't stand up to a 6 man straight up but it can rip it apart in sc's where you have more support from additional groups in a sc. Not every group comp needs tanks. Scout SW/Big shoota is super self efficient. More so for scout SW.

rkd has SO MANY uses you didn't even list half of em. It is such a utility drop for the sw in almost all spec's.

I only compare SH with SW because we are doing well from purely a ap damage output and SW scout can do well also BECAUSE you have better ap damage output. But you kinda need the rkd which got removed without discussion.

Again I don't agree with the issue. I do agree that scout utility needs to be brought back. I think that should be in the form that the baseline Rkd should be brought back over the suggested solutions. So I guess this is a counter proposal.

[lefze]

It's only a damage increase in fringe cases of WW parties. And if every single balance discussion is gonna revolve around stuff being broken with WW I say make a proposal to get rid of WW, not gut every other class. And the power of scout is most definetly not in No Quarter, and no, an example of a 4 SW/SH party blowing up pugs is NOT in any way representative of how the spec functions under any kind of real pressure.

A castime decrease is always an effective damage gain, WW yes or no doesnt matter. If the casttime gets decreased by 1sec you gain a cooldown in the rotation, so the damage should also be decreased, otherwise the arguement just comes down to: gif more damage.

If FA would be underperforming damage wise, i would say ok, but it's not.

In theory a lot of stuff in this game should be broken beyond belief, but it just isn't, because some things just aren't viable in practical situations. The Only damage increase that comes out of cast time reduction here is that the SW can even BEGIN casting a rotation. There's a reason for example sorcs have to use backloaded roations to kill stuff, now compare that rotation to the typical practically feasible SW rotation. SW seems to be lacking something doesn't it? And how often can a sorc get off a doombolt in a dynamic fight? Now obviously SW should not, and never will, rival a sorcs damage, but the practical issues of a 3 second are felt on all classes, and even more so on SW as it's litterally the only good part about the whole spec.

And as I've said before, I agree it doesn't lack damage on paper, but in actual gameplay the long cast time on fester makes SW a fluffmachine with more often than not 2-2.5 second attempted but foiled casts of fester in between kiting with instant skills.

Edit: And it seems none of you realize scout SW is heavily reliant on cooldowns, you don't stand still constantly spamming eagle eyes and festers melting peoples faces. Just doesn't work like that unless you are content hunting down solos with a 6 man.

[Skalier]

For sure it should not be like before, that RKD was core ability, Skirmish looks even good but let's focus on Scout. Currently Scout is so tragic that no one plays this.

A person playing in this mode should bet on a balistic skill and not on a weapon skill, so that there is a change. That's why Festering Arrow should be the main skill of this specialization, that is, 13 points. And should be spammable, with 2 sec cast time. In this combination of Enchanted Arrows, which reduces resistance by half, looks good.

[daniilpb]

I don’t know what targets those people nuke or kill with FA. 35 sorcs and zealots?
The damage on guarded enemies (mostly this is the only kind of enemy you can get close to) just can’t be hit hard. Your FA will be healed with next spell on them. And since there are no other options to deal damage in scout, you become extremely useless. Eagle Eye spam can’t compensate lack of rotations because you will burn out of AP in seconds dealing fluff damage which will never go through guard-healing mitigation.

[Penril]

Regardless of whether Scout is in a good place or not, what we arecurrently discussing are Enchanted Arrows and Guerrilla Training. Are those 2 skills/tactics good/bad?

If there is an issue with them, then they deserve to be looked at. I don't want to read "Scout is fine again". If you post something like this it better be "Enchanted Arrows/Guerrilla training are fine", and be ready to explain why.

[Tesq]

hardly an ap "cost" reduction tactic have any use rather than being fine or underperforming in long cast time mastery.

this hold much meaning in all warhammer online archtype as most of ap tactic are missplaced on mastery where there is no need for ap cost reduction (chosen middle mastery ?). Not only that but in the game there never was a kind of logic that keep ap cost proportionally between lower and higer cast time.

Just look between spiral fleched arrow and eagle eye.

1x eagle eye cost 40ap
2x spiral fleched arrow cost 50ap

so basically the scout mastery is the one which less need an ap tactic

tactics are easier to balance due the fact that they are limited in slot which mean even buffing guerrila training will results in not huge buff as long it totaly not overwrite other tactics and not buff cross mastery skills.

the only problem i have is in buff fest arrow as it's one of the most damaging hated skill destru side for some good reasons. The more his dmg get high the harder is to keep in check the balance as any burst combination with it just keep get better and better till you arrive at the ista-shoot in 2-3 sec in the worst case scenario when classes like bw get tag along due stacking burst effect on the target.

I hardly see a consensus when you wanna move things from "counterable" to require more "awareness" especially when festering arrow is hard to spot and was one of the main reason which lead to it's nerf at first.(heavy hitter finisher, stackable with other effect mid air due projectile traveling time+ hit from nowhere to be seen+ no way to mitigate the dmg+have the best range of all sw tools).
As for what other classes get, engi/magus is a clear exemple , due lacking the meccanic of sorc//bw they get access to 15% crit chance increase bind to their mastery skills. A similar solution should be find imo.

-to make it clear one thing is increase "scout mastery" average dps another one is increase festering arrow dmg. While increase fest arrow do both you can reach the aim to increase scout dmg with out increase festering arrow dmg(because as said above we dont want give fest arropw even MORE burst )
-so ye agree on guerrila tactics being basically lackluster but i don't agree on enchanted arrow to be buff or buff festering arrow.

OP imo should change the proposal for guerrila tactic into something which dont buff fest arrow ( fest arrow and flame arrow alredy have 1 dedicated tactic if they require further tuning the tuning must be done on the skills or the tactic itself not by give another tactic to an alredy good proved combination x se).

-keep in mind that if guerrilla training do something usefull for all mastery skills then any discussion for enchanted arrow should be postponed because it going to be a double BUFF/CHANGE for festering arrow and flame arrow that way.

Spoiler:

(sidenote was not enchanted arrow re-buff again to 100%? can any confirm if it's 50% or 100% now cuz the builder say 50%)

[lefze]

To answer Tesq, enchanted arrows bypasses 100% resist atm. Also, guerrilla training is indeed useless, and I also agree fester has enough damage. What I don't agree with is that the buffs should be aimed at something other than fester. 1a is a completely fine change, but put it on guerrilla training instead of the silly damage increases. Fixes a core issue of the class, keeps fester just as bad if you try to use in a heavy skirmish spec, and makes guerrilla training a worthwhile tactic for scout, which really lacks tactics to slot tbh.

The class as it is might just be too heavily designed around stances to really balance scout around anything but fester, as long as SFA is bound to assault and skirmish the class is forced to play bursty if specced scout. Now I know you have the option to stance dance, but the second you start to heavily dance to try to keep up you might aswell just have specced skirmish.

If it still sucks, it's still a step forward and it's as easy as implementing further buffs in the future.

Edit: Also, saying fester+ea was a good combo is irrelevant, it was decent but unreliable as hell while we had m2, it hasn't been relevant after the removal. Though the change to 100% bypass with 4k damage cap helped reliability, it was still a one trick pony that could go 2-3 minutes between each successful combo.