Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

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Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#1 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm

Hello everyone.

Welcome back for round two of the Tank Morale Overhaul thread. This time I'm taking the job of typing all this crap up so you guys can bless us with your salt. Please be speaking the English gooder and make the words format nicerly so we can read things the bestest. If you post low-effort junk, it's real easy to ignore and move on. If you post a mega-wall of feedback, I may go blind and/or forcefully remove my eyes. Try to stick to one class at a time that you know best, or don't. I'm just trying to get you guys to help us guys.

After the last thread we took about 10 pages of feedback and tried to compress them down into common concerns. We also had some questions about how some of the abilities were worded, so those will be cleaned up as well. Definitely not posting the amazing technicolor screenshot spreadsheet this time, so you will have to use your imagination for what fresh hellscape it looks like now. In the previous thread we may have accidentally used the base damage values for career specific Morales, which made them seem a lot worse than they actually are, but for all the ones we're looking at, there's at least some room for improvement.

I'll go to go into more detail on why some of these changes are being pushed and some of the soft rules we're thinking about when constructing stuff like this into the future (there's three more archtypes to go!). Fitting into this same timeframe are changes to how morale is generated, which have started with a few patches to base rates. More to come on that front concerning pumps and drains. Please don't discuss pumps/drains in this thread, we're trying to keep it cohesive to the efficiency and usefulness of Morale abilities, not the rate they're gained. Yes, we can process these things separately and we intend to.

Also, try to keep the personal attacks to yourselves. Devs don't care how dumb you think they are, and my hammer-finger has been itchy lately anyway. If something is clearly an error, just point it out. I'm not above making mistakes, and they can be fixed so we can move on and have lovely productive discussions.


Core Morales
Spoiler:
M4 - Immaculate Defense

Current - 75% damage reduction for group members within 100' for 10s
Proposed - 60% damage reduction for group members within 100' for 10s

This one is simple, ID is overperforming compared to spec'd M4's. We want the spec choices at the top of the tree to be better options, and part of this is toning down the existing core morale.

M3 - Raze

Current - 65' Cone, deals 300dmg per second for 4 ticks (1200 damage)
Proposed - Same - but will require a 2-handed weapon. Boooo hissss.

Concern around Raze was that PvE tanks will lose a critical tool for dealing with Hate. However, we've tested and have received targeted feedback that existing tools are sufficient without running Raze to control hate. Plenty of tanks don't run Raze in PvE to control aggro, and provided your team is doing their part with detaunts and managing their DPS levels it's not a problem. Raze makes it much easier for a main tank to be absolute about aggro control, but we want that responsibility to be on the mind of any player in PvE content.

The other lesser concern was a loss of DPS during warband level situations, however we feel that Raze is not the appropriate tool for main tanks in these situations. If you want to morale bomb large groups, your 2-handed spec will have to do, or rely on your DPS classes to bring the bomb damage. That's what they exist for.

M3 - Clear the Skies - NEW

Previous - Grants a Hold the Line buff to your group for 12s - rejected
Proposed - Grants a 3000pt Absorb for Magic/Ranged damage for group members within 100' for 12s - Shield Required

The thought behind a shield-only morale was to provide defenses to your group. Using Hold The Line was a bit lazy and considering tanks already have this available and spammed pretty frequently during warband situations didn't really fit the need. Also some people assumed we were removing the existing Hold The Line ability, which was not the case. It was just a placeholder name as it would carry a similar effect. Alternatively, a 3000pt ranged damage absorb will allow a push into funnel situations, excluding melee from the absorb allows counterplay from the frontline. This will not negate morale damage.

M2 - Shield Wall

Unchanged

M2 - Distracting Bellow

Current - Range 100', target and enemies within 30' of target have damage reduced by 50% for 10s
Proposed - 50' radius from user, enemies have damage reduced by 40% for 10s

Concerns around this morale was the significant reduction of range with the previous proposal. However, one of the reasons we proposed this in the first place was due to the range being very odd to begin with. Shouts simply don't work as a long range targeted AOE, and tanks really don't need to be 100' away from a target to make it effective. Instead of a 30' Cone effect, this has been adjusted to a 50' radius from the tank. This can be used while closing in on the backline, as tanks like to do, or to bring an enemy melee train to a grind with their damage dropping off. Both use cases should be easy enough to pull off.

Core M1's are unchanged

Could Demolishing Strike use a damage buff? Probably, but it's really used for the very significant Armor debuff, so no change needed.
Does Champ Challenge need anything at all? Risk/reward is appropriate, misplays are punishing and quick to learn proper timing and use cases.


Class Specific Morales


Black Orc
Spoiler:
One of the concerns we noted for Black Orc is that the right tree is simply too good with the addition of the Mor' Choppin' Dem tactic that gives WAAAAGH! a cooldown decreaser. This was swapped with No Choppin' Me which is now a Core tactic that causes the Follow 'me Lead's Weaponskill buff to apply to nearby groupmates. It was a reasonable change at the time to add something much better high into the tree, although it does impose significantly on the Chop Fasta' skill which has a worse cooldown. This is overdue for adjustment, but it's not a factor we are going to address when it comes to balancing the Morales themselves. So, with that being acknowledged, we can continue under the pretense that we're comparing the spec M4's against the Core M4 players use by default.

M4 - Puddle of Muck - DPS Tree

Current - 1800dmg over 15s in a 40' line attack with a 40% snare for 15s (5 dot ticks for 360 every 3s)
Proposed - 1200dmg instant in a 40' line, with 3200dmg over 16s and 40% snare for 16s (8 dot ticks for 400 every 2s)

Damage was still too low with the previous proposal, however we want to make sure that DPS classes are responsible for burst damage in situations that call for it. The proposed 3200 damage over 16s as an uncleansable DOT (as morales should be doing) comes out to 200 damage per second, which is fine for undefendable damage. Current damage is 130 per second. We're going to scale other Morale dots based on the damage per second, rather than total damage, as some of them look like a big number but have poor results over long durations as they're easily healed through. 200dps would be considered about mid-range of what's possible outside of a channelled ability. (e.g. Hail of Doom at 600dps or Raze at 300dps)

Also if we're able to implement it would be to make it persistent ground damage instead of an applied dot, similar to Engi Napalm or Magus Mist. This would provide a bit of area denial for funnel situations.


M4 - Can't Touch Us - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, +200 AP and 4500 absorb for 15s
Unchanged

The initial proposal was to make sure this is equivalent to the Swordmaster M4, but spec points in the tree weren't taken into consideration at the time. Why spec points matter for an ability at the top of the tree doesn't make a lot of sense, but the effects do match anyway. If anything we may clear up the tooltip to reflect the fully specced effect of the ability, along with other M4's. There's no reason for the tooltips to scale in the tree if they're already at the top.


M4 - Yer Nothin' - Utility Tree

Current - 1800dmg over 12s and enemies lose "30 seconds" of morale over 12 seconds within 30'
Proposed - Reduce user speed by 50%, deal 300 damage per second for 8 seconds and knockback players 3' within 20' while this is being channeled. Knockback does not trigger immunities.

As an M4, we're hoping to see a fairly visceral impact when you press the button. This alternative would be similar to the Squig Herder charge ability, allowing the BO to become an unstoppable force and push straight through a funnel knocking everyone out of the way and ticking some decent morale damage in the process.


M3 - Deafening Bellow

Current - 1200 damage within 30' and a 5s silence
Proposed - 1500 damage within 30' and a 1s buildup time for 10s

Damage bumped up, but we're keeping the buildup time debuff. This is instant damage, so the effectiveness would be better than Raze for burst damage which would give Black Orc one of the better M3's for damage spikes. Based on the inital feedback over buildup time, I don't feel enough explanation was given. The 1s buildup time would apply to all abilities, even instant casts would have a short buildup time, which would cause a rather annoying (for the enemy) cast bar on anything they try to do. Even with the GCD being less time than the buildup, the delay imposed would interfere with melee attacks and instant casts that rely on being able to chain abilities together.

M2 - Walk It Off

Current - 100' party buff, increase Toughness by 160 for 30s
Proposed - 100' party buff, reduce incoming crit damage by 25% for 20s

The scaling effectiveness of a Toughness buff on your party, even when stacking with other Toughness buffs. Crit damage reduction would play a significant role in damage mitigation no matter what stage of the game you're in. Also, reducing the buff duration from 30s to 20s is more appropriate for the use of an M2. This will be one of many themes as we go through poking at each of the Morales up for discussion.


M1 - Quit Yer Squabblin'

Current - 100' party buff, 10% parry and dodge for 30s
Proposed - Buff self and defensive target, 15% parry and dodge for 20s

This gets us down to a point where looking at M1's we consider what base level of efficiency they have. The Core M1's are generally single target or self buffs. With Black Orc and Swordmaster however, these are group buffs, BO in particular with a very long duration. This is clearly out of place and far stronger in effect than other archtypes. Instead of a group buff, this will be self and defensive target, with a 5% bump in effectiveness, but only for 20s instead of 30s.

Chosen
Spoiler:
M4 - Warping Embrace - DPS Tree

Current - 40' line, 369dmg ?? with a 40% snare for 15s
Proposed - 40' line, 1200dmg with a 40% snare for 15s

This was probably supposed to be a DoT ticking for 369 damage every couple of seconds, but it really is set to 369 flat damage in the client, so who knows what Mythic was thinking with this one. 1200 instant damage with a nice beefy snare is much more appropriate.

M4 - Sprout Carapace - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, +100 AP instant with 1320 armor and 504 all resists for 30s
Unchanged

M4 - Shatter Faith - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1200dmg and dispel 1 blessing
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, 1200dmg and reduce enemy crit chance by 20% for 15s (morale debuffs are not cleansable)

The previous proposal had this mirroring the KotBS Solar Flare that drained all morale (that one is changing as well), but due to the pumps available to Chosen, it didn't make sense for the mirror M4 to go here. Instead, reducing enemy crit chance by a hefty amount should be more impactful and unique for an M4. Dispelling a single blessing was just meh.

M3 - Impenetrable Armor

Current - Self 7200 absorb for 20s
Unchanged

M2 - Tzeentch's Amplification

Current - Self increase incoming healing by 300% for 15s
Unchanged

The previous iteration we were interested in getting a different effect for this, but feedback was largely positive for the existing effect. I suppose if you're not using a shield *cough cough* this would be your replacement for Shield Wall. The only interesting change we saw suggested was to make it splash heals off the Chosen to nearby allies. This might be techincally possible, but I don't think anything else currently has an effect like that.

M1 - Inevitable Changing

Current - 600dmg, restores AP to full
Proposed - 900dmg, restores AP to full

This is put up against Demolishing Strike, which is a very potent armor debuff and allows everyone to deal more damage to your target. With an extra 300 damage for burst potential, it would be on par with other M1's that have minor effects tied to them.

Blackguard
Spoiler:
M4 - Blast of Hatred - DPS Tree

Current - 40' line, deals 2400dmg over 15s (480dmg x 5 ticks) with a medium knockback and 40% snare for 15s
Proposed - 40' line, 1800dmg with a medium knockback

Relatively low ticking DoT effects really don't represent a Blast of anything, more like a lingering funk. This should be a solid improvement for burst from the DPS tree. It loses the snare effect for the increased damage, as well as differentiating it from the other tank M4's in these DPS trees.

M4 - Khaine's Warding - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, when any group member blocks heal group for 1200, 10s duration
Proposed - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 20% for 10s, BG also receives 3000pt absorb for 10s and 100 Hate

The existing M4 was rather odd to have on a tank, and the block requirement was rather limiting as you might be the only tank in the group wielding a cookie sheet. A flat avoidance buff provides a more immediate benefit for the group, and true to form with the Blackguard they get a smaller absorb bubble and Hate refill for themselves.

M4 - In Malekith's Name - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800dmg and 5s Silence
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, 1200dmg and drain 1200 morale

Adding this in as a mirror for the Solar Flare morale from KotBS fits with this spec line better. It also breaks up direct class mirroring and provides the Blackguard with a good warband level tool to bring to large engagements.

M3 - Armor of Eternal Servitude

Current - Heal self for 2400 over 20s and gain 990 armor over 20s
Proposed - Heal self for 7200 over 20s and gain 990 armor over 20s

Similar tank M3's are triple the value of this heal, and they're an instant absorb effect. Typically we consider burst to be much better than over time effects, so this heal value is getting bumped up to match. The armor value makes up the difference in effectiveness.

M2 - Away Cretins!

Current - 30' PBAOE, deal 600 damage and knockback
Unchanged

M1 - Banish Weakness

Current - Remove all Hex/Curse/Ailments, gain 50AP/200HP for each
Unchanged

Feedback on this ability during the last proposal was very positive for the default version. Going to leave it as is.

Ironbreaker
Spoiler:
M4 - Axe Slam - DPS Tree

Current - 45 degree 65' cone, deal 2400 damage
Unchanged

Not much to say on this. Decent area of effect, great burst damage.

M4 - Strength in Numbers - Tank tree

Current - 100% Block on self, 25% avoidance for party within 100' for 10s
Proposed - 100% Block on self, 20% avoidance for party within 100' for 10s

Full group avoidance effects are really strong, so we're paring this back ever so slightly to fit with other M4's.

M4 - Earthen Renewal - Utility Tree

Current - 100' party buff, heal 1197 (3 ticks for 399 over 3s), add 240 AP.
Proposed - 100' party buff, 250AP over 10s (5 ticks of 50 AP every 2s) and on enemy spell cast deal 400 damage to caster.

This was a pretty terrible heal for an M4 to begin with so that's not much to drop anyway, but feedback did request to keep the AP feed. This will be spread out over 10s along with a magic Riposte type effect for the group. Since this is a morale AP feed, it should not require characters to be idle to tick. Normally AP only regenerates in-between attacks.

M3 - Gromril Plating

Current - 7200 absorb for 20s
Unchanged

Boring! But effective! I would personally think Plating would be something related to armor, but it's just a self absorb bubble. Is that all we need here? Mind you, adding anything to the existing effect would take away from the absorb partially, or entirely depending on the suggestion. This seems fine however.

M2 - Skin of Iron

Current - Damage reduced to 1 for 5s
Proposed - 10s self buff, when attacked in melee disarm attacker for 5s

The existing implementation certainly had some positive feedback (expected as the invlunerability effect is obviously very strong), but there was also some significant confusion about what we meant. Part of what we wanted to change here was the invlunerability factor. Even with Shield Wall, you can still get hit from behind, and this is only an M2. Total damage immunity is pretty questionable for any effect. Limiting the effect to melee attackers would give more coverage than shield wall in the sense that any direction is affected, also prevents attacks from peeling off you and hitting your mates (if they disarmed after the first hit). This wouldn't affect ranged units, which leaves another window of opportunity open for the enemy realm. It's still very much a defensive tool, isn't total cheese, and provides a benefit for your melee groupmates as well as yourself.

M1 - Rock Clutch

Current - 5' range, 900 damage, 5s unbreakable root
Proposed - 30' range, 900 damage, 5s unbreakable root
Note - Marauder M1 Flames of Fate, and White Lion M1 Ensnare will be mirrored to this when implemented

When it comes to morales that basically have the same exact effect at different efficiencies, well. Who knows why there's a discrepancy between these three. Some will try to qualify Destro as having better morale pumps, so the Mara one is weaker, but the WL is stronger, and then you have the IB which is far weaker than both of them, but it's on a tank so it's supposed to be? Mara/WL have a full 65' range and IB have 5' because traps and chaos magic are more ranged than rock magic? None of this fits right, Ensnare/FoF are both very strong, so we're squishing them all into a common effect with the same duration, range, and damage, all somewhere in the middle. This ends up being a nice buff for IB, and a nerf for WL and Mara, while bringing all three on par with each other.

Knight of the Blazing Sun
Spoiler:
M4 - Nova Strike - DPS Tree

Current - 65' line, 1200 damage with 1200 over 9s (4 ticks at 300)
Proposed - 65' line, 1200 damage with 1800 over 9s (3 ticks at 600)

Note about this, apparently at some point damage was reported to be blockable. When we get in here to dig around, we will make sure that isn't a thing. Aside from that, this needs a bit more DPS from the DoT tick and it should be fine.

M4 - Flawless Defense - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 50% for 10s
Proposed - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 30% for 10s

50% is too damn high! Relative to other tank morales anyway. Sure they don't get anything for themselves, but at 30% it's still the strongest group avoidance buff in the game.

M4 - Solar Flare - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, deal 1200 damage and drain all morale from nearby enemies.
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, deal 1200 damage and drain 1200 morale from nearby enemies.

Let's just bring this down a big fat notch. In situations where Solar Flare is going to be specced for and used, a 1200pt morale drain will do handle more than enough disruption to make a push into an enemy group. ALL morale is a silly amount. Keep in mind that Blackguard is getting a straight mirror of this ability as well. Can you perform the same job with _only_ a 1200pt morale drain? Absolutely.

M3 - No Escape

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1200 damage and 10s unbreakable root
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, 900 damage and 5s unbreakable root

This is something we kind of compared to Rock Clutch as the IB M1, and then looked at all of the other tank M3's, most of which are defensive in nature. Lowering the damage to match other 5s unbreakable roots makes sense, and the 30' radius also fits. Where No Escape should shine is catching several people at once. The current implementation is strong enough that there's no reason to hold it even if you only hit a single target. It was essentially an entire Raze channel being dumped as instant burst damage with a 10s unbreakable root. That's a bit much.

M2 - Emporer's Champion

Current - Self buff STR/TGH/WND +240 for 30s
Proposed - Self buff, grant CC/snare immunity and a 20% movement speed boost for 10s

Feedback was opposed to the previous proposal as it combined too many benefits into a single buff. Pulling that back slightly, this will not cleanse your existing CC or Snares. You will need to use Juggernaut before popping this for full freedom of movement and hope you're not snared in that brief window. The reason for this change is 720 points of stats. I don't know where this comes from. KotBS already have some rather significant ways to boost their stats, adding in 720 points of Morale stats that stack with those is way overkill. Being able to move freely allows the KotBS to position for a group stagger, long knockback, and maybe a challenge before the effect wears off.

M1 - Guardian of Light

Current - Self absorb 3600 damage for 30s
Unchanged

This is a fairly strong M1, but it's literally the same effect and duration as Archmage, so not unheard of.

Swordmaster
Spoiler:
M4 - Whirling Geyser - DPS Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1200 damage and knockback
Unchanged

M4 - Shield of Valor - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, gain 200 AP and 4500pt absorb for 10s
Proposed - 100' party buff, gain 200 AP and 4500pt absorb for 15s

This is being bumped up slightly in absorb duration as it's the same thing as Black Orc M4 - Can't Touch Us. Whether these absorbs actually last 15s or not is a totally different issue, no sense leaving it sloppy.

M4 - Shadow Blades - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800 damage over 12s (~500x4 at 2-4s?), -28 morale per second note: broken / mitigated damage
Proposed - 30' PBAOE channel, 2700 damage over 9s (900x3 ticks at 3s), Pull up to 4 random targets up to 45' away to the center - ignores immunities.

Something about spinning around with a big sword just seems right. This is a pull effect similar to Choppa, the damage is significant as it's an interruptible channel. Ideally we would have the first pull go off before the damage starts ticking, and the last pull line up with the last tick. This would grab random players within 45', getting lucky means pulling in players that are outside the 30' damage radius.


M3 - Bladeshield

Current - Deal 600 damage back to attackers and 3600pt absorb for 10s
Unchanged

M2 - Guard of Steel (swapping Wings of Heaven to M1)

Current - 100' party buff, increase Toughness by 120 for 10s
Proposed - 100' party buff, increase Armor by 800 for 20s

The swap on these is two-fold. First we didn't want to do a flat nerf to WoH, moving it down to M1 makes it more accessible, and allows us to change it as a tradeoff. Second, Guard of Steel being a party buff simply does not belong in the M1 slot. To compensate for that, making it a Morale armor buff and extending the duration to 20s should be satisfactory.

M1 - Wings of Heaven

Current - Pounce up to 100' feet (really?) to your target. Snare enemies in the area by 60% for 10s
Proposed - Pounce up to 45' to your target, deal 600 damage to enemies within 20' when you land.

Bringing this range down to 45' and adding a bit of AOE splash damage on the landing instead of a vicious 60% snare should bring it in line with M1 effectiveness. Problems with very long movements like this come in two flavors, magically appearing tank elves due to server latency (kind of looks like warping), and the ability to get to places that probably shouldn't be gotten to. 45' is plenty for a front line tank to reasonably hop around.
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Grock
Posts: 275

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#2 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:46 pm

Immaculate Defence reduction from 75% to 60% reduction means instead of 400% EffectiveHP it will provide only 250% EffectiveHP, that is almost twice weaker. Just so everyone understands the numbers here.

Similarly for Distracting Bellow reduced from 200% EffectiveHP to 166%
Another concern about Disctracting Bellow is that it will be an indirect buff to ranged dps as there won't be an option to cast DB on a group of RDPS in the distance, especially in smallscale/scenarios where you are less likely to have SnB HtL tanks.

Adding 2h requirement to Raze will give a reason to play 2h tank in RvR (still not dps spec'd). It was discussed many times that currently there's a clear distinction that 2h tanks provide utility for small scale with improved punts and on-demand KDs, while SnB tanks are suited for massive RvR with extra survivability and HtL buff.
Removing Raze from SnB and giving it to 2h will kinda harm this situation.
Ranged Damage Absorb is a bit redundant IMO since triple HtL provides 45% avoidance against ranged damage, not including D&D. Considering the way avoidance stacks having RR D&D with triple HtL is more than enough to make most ranged damage irrelevant.

Won't comment on class-specific morales yet, but i have to say that i greatly appreciate this kind of discussion.
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Akilinus
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#3 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:08 pm

Can we stop with the 2h vs snb meme? Its not funny anymore. Tanks are the most balanced archetype in the game. Just give some group utility in chosens left tree and its ok.
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#4 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:10 pm

Nice well described and detailed reasoning.

My biggest concern was iron skin, this as an m2 is in my opinion very powerful and by can just stop a push on its own.
Scenario is one iron breaker in the middle of fight pops this m2 , 9 mele dps silenced in effect for 5 seconds seems too strong.

Can see this being super effective for bomb warband, just before dump morals pop this on IB , now they can not easily be aoe punted as the punt just results in disarm .
There are a few scenarios that come to mind for this in this form.
Last edited by Acidic on Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Tesq
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#5 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:47 pm

Great example of feedback that probably isn't going to be looked at.
Spoiler:
M4 - Shadow Blades - Utility Tree
Spoiler:
Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800 damage over 12s (500+x4 at 2-4s?), -28 morale per second note: broken / mitigated damage
Proposed - 30' PBAOE channel, 2700 damage over 9s (900x3 ticks at 3s), Pull up to 4 random targets up to 45' away to the center - ignores immunities.
too long and strong. Condense effect and dmg into 6 sec, and remove that broken part of ignoring immunity and standadize effect with area of dmg; aswell change it to not give any immunity instead:

-> 30'' PBAOE channel, 1800 damage over 6s (tick at 0-2-4-6 sec for 450 )+ Pull up to 4 random targets up to 30' away to the center - not confer any imunity


M3 - No Escape
Spoiler:
Current - 30' PBAOE, 1200 damage and 10s unbreakable root
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, 900 damage and 5s unbreakable root
dmg is too high:

if channeling is 1200
and ista is hypotetically 900
what is a dot debuff in ebtween fo the two (not channeling so.. )...1100 ???

the difference between a channeling and an istant with effect is too small it need to be widen; make 600 dmg, 5 sec ubreakable; btw torque made no escape i think it still is unless a miss a revert.

M3 - Deafening Bellow
Spoiler:
Current - 1200 damage within 30' and a 5s silence
Proposed - 1500 damage within 30' and a 1s buildup time for 10s
you joking right?? RAZE IS A CHANNELING it can be interrupted for 3 WHOLE SECONDS, what about start casting behind a wall then move into ppl?! or simply just pure luck?!, raze can be countered at eye, this implementation wuold just be totaly broken.

-if raze is a channeling 1200 over 3 sec
-a not channeling over 3 sec dmg would be 900
-and an istant would be 600

please change both this and no escape (since they are cross mirroring) to 600 dmg and 5 sec effect

M1 - Quit Yer Squabblin'
Spoiler:
Current - 100' party buff, 10% parry and dodge for 30s
Proposed - Buff self and defensive target, 15% parry and dodge
20 sec is ok, have it restricted to 1 ppl only it isn't; being a panic button most of time it wil be wasted regardingt friendly support; leave it group wide 10% parry/dodge 20 sec, still i belive is perfectly balanced 10% for 30 sec both but if you really have to nerf it to 20 sec because consistency ( with what then..) with sm m1 leave the effect groupwide unless you gona tell mw sm cane buff 800 armor groupwide but you can 10% parry /dodge groupwide....cuz they cover the same pshysical dmg right?

M2 - Skin of Iron
Spoiler:
Current - Damage reduced to 1 for 5s
Proposed - 10s self buff, when attacked in melee disarm attacker for 5s
you comment here is out of logic , re read what has been wrote for this change and lets compare this to shield wall instead ;

-10 sec 180 degree ALL (100% total ) dmg immunity (buff on yourself)
-5 sec 360 degree melee (50% total ) dmg immunity (as conseguence of disarm)

they are identical in a random sich, new one is worst vs ranged sich and moreover it's unskilled in all sich compared to shield wall; atm

iron skin is perfectly balanced with shield wall so you gona give something that is not on par with shield wall therefor it wont be too with iron skin; sy but destru can bear a 5 immunity every 1 min jeez really this skill is fine it has always been duno why al this focus on it. Also i think all 2h user will throw their " grudge" at ya if you keep this going on, it is alredy hard to play as 2h in most sich appart in scenario i dont think ib warrant this nerf.

P.S. WOW new effect its also retarded broken .... what happen when you change a self buff in a aoe out of target cap DEBUFF? ! destru wb cry thatws what happen.... please think what you are just trying to include into game...UNLIMITED TARGET CAP - 5 sec MELEE DISABLE !? ON MORAL 2 ???? what the hell man......you serious?

M2 - Emporer's Champion
Spoiler:
Current - Self buff STR/TGH/WND +240 for 30s
Proposed - Self buff, grant CC/snare immunity and a 20% movement speed boost for 10s
i know, you know, my mama, grnadmother, bis-grandmother know that immunity to snare and speed buff are broken when paired; since it's only 20% and you agian rpesent a charget skill , sigh, make it 7 sec instead 10 to resamble a balance with charge and lets give it a try....

M1 - Inevitable Changing

Current - 600dmg, restores AP to full
Proposed - 900dmg, restores AP to full

this skill is useless; it has been given to chosen for a blank nerf with no reason to not nerf aura in live for then have aura nerf when kobs was relased , it instead had the the same IB moral root; i ask it get mirror back; simply because live had wl m1 root being mirrored on mara so why ch which had the moral root still cant have it back? the ap regen is near to useless, we have font to regen it alredy and dps set up dont consume much ap as spam hold the line, aka you wont use this anyway, it's wasted. Please consider give back the root m1 ch had cross mirrored with ib.

GENERAL CONSIDERATION ON offensive/def M4 DMG

you have to remember their dmg can and will be stack with coordination, moreover in siege sich (aka 99% sich were game revolve with a win/loose condition) both side will make sure to use em......
So you are nerfing tank m4 which is alredy not working vs morales and you are also increasing offensive tanks morales?? what will happen will be a general movement into off morales.

The m4 ID nerf is un-need the problem is not iD over performign but the problem of have not something to counter morales which are pure dmg and so you need something at least for counter totaly normal skill dmg pre and after morales to recover.

By nerf ID you will simply make bottle neck untackable. Nerf off ista morales first and nerf id then other def morales wills tart to work aswell.

for exemple

if raze:
-is 1200 dmg
-is m2
-is aoe
-it have no accessory effect (such snare /armor debuff etc)
-and channeling (there fore higer dmg but an be interrupt)


then a moral system should be like base on +- x00 values (this case is 300):

channeling
m2 1200
m3 1500
m4 1800

debuff dot
m2 900
m3 1200
m4 1500

istant
m2 600
m3 900
m4 1200

aka 1200 shold be the MAX AVAIABLE raw AOE dmg in game. it hit 9 target you need 9 dps m1 to have the same impact, aka 9x times more potent... i saw values like 1800 above; all those values are crazy high and unbalanced.
Last edited by Tesq on Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:38 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#6 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:17 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M2 - Emporer's Champion

Current - Self buff STR/TGH/WND +240 for 30s
Proposed - Self buff, grant CC/snare immunity and a 20% movement speed boost for 10s

Feedback was opposed to the previous proposal as it combined too many benefits into a single buff. Pulling that back slightly, this will not cleanse your existing CC or Snares. You will need to use Juggernaut before popping this for full freedom of movement and hope you're not snared in that brief window. The reason for this change is 720 points of stats. I don't know where this comes from. KotBS already have some rather significant ways to boost their stats, adding in 720 points of Morale stats that stack with those is way overkill. Being able to move freely allows the KotBS to position for a group stagger, long knockback, and maybe a challenge before the effect wears off.

I'm not sure this really fits the class identity in any way.

Regardless, it seems rather restricting and clunky if you have to use another ability in order to get any use out of this morale.

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Posts: 363

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#7 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:26 pm

Chosen

M4 - Warping Embrace - DPS Tree

Current - 40' line, 369dmg ?? with a 40% snare for 15s
Proposed - 40' line, 1200dmg with a 40% snare for 15s

Is it accounting for the points invested into line? If so, what is the reason for dmg being lower then all other tanks m4 ? In situations where this m4 will be used (wb vs wb), 40 f snare doesn't seems to warrant it.
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#8 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:53 pm

Zxul wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:26 pm
Chosen

M4 - Warping Embrace - DPS Tree

Current - 40' line, 369dmg ?? with a 40% snare for 15s
Proposed - 40' line, 1200dmg with a 40% snare for 15s

Is it accounting for the points invested into line? If so, what is the reason for dmg being lower then all other tanks m4 ? In situations where this m4 will be used (wb vs wb), 40 f snare doesn't seems to warrant it.
because its a bug fix while all other morales got hyper buff
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#9 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:06 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M3 - Raze

Current - 65' Cone, deals 300dmg per second for 4 ticks (1200 damage)
Proposed - Same - but will require a 2-handed weapon. Boooo hissss.

Concern around Raze was that PvE tanks will lose a critical tool for dealing with Hate. However, we've tested and have received targeted feedback that existing tools are sufficient without running Raze to control hate. Plenty of tanks don't run Raze in PvE to control aggro, and provided your team is doing their part with detaunts and managing their DPS levels it's not a problem. Raze makes it much easier for a main tank to be absolute about aggro control, but we want that responsibility to be on the mind of any player in PvE content.

The other lesser concern was a loss of DPS during warband level situations, however we feel that Raze is not the appropriate tool for main tanks in these situations. If you want to morale bomb large groups, your 2-handed spec will have to do, or rely on your DPS classes to bring the bomb damage. That's what they exist for.


Raze primery use was pve? really? Not sure I agree. but I kinda like the change of moving away from tanks having moral burst without specing for it. Granted I want to see how pumps/drains work and how potent the dps archtype moralbombs will be, so for now I like this.


wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M3 - Deafening Bellow

Current - 1200 damage within 30' and a 5s silence
Proposed - 1500 damage within 30' and a 1s buildup time for 10s

Damage bumped up, but we're keeping the buildup time debuff. This is instant damage, so the effectiveness would be better than Raze for burst damage which would give Black Orc one of the better M3's for damage spikes. Based on the inital feedback over buildup time, I don't feel enough explanation was given. The 1s buildup time would apply to all abilities, even instant casts would have a short buildup time, which would cause a rather annoying (for the enemy) cast bar on anything they try to do. Even with the GCD being less time than the buildup, the delay imposed would interfere with melee attacks and instant casts that rely on being able to chain abilities together.

Following the logic of tanks shouldnt morale damage burst, this seems odd to me.
5sec aoe silence is nasty, but 1 sec buildup time is kind of a soft-cc aswel and then raise the damage on the ability on top? :shock: Howabout some stat-steal or something instead of the builduptime? looking at how potent Blackorcs already are in warband play you will see average of 4 BOs 4chosens in a decent warband comp. if all of the BOs use this at once thats a 6000 moraledump from just half of your tankline. removing about 80% of the enemy dps-players hp, just from a half of your tank-moraldump. Seeing this moraledamage-number as a warbandcomp-builder I would not spec it for the buildup, its irrelevant. the damage is just too good. The buildup time does however make for little recovery chance, due to instant aoe punts now take additional time, or heals come out 1sec later if its applied on a backline, so you can afford to be sloppy with it and uncoordinated.

I would suggest lower damage number, or remove soft cc and look towards a stat steal, snare or something utility.


wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M4 - In Malekith's Name - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800dmg and 5s Silence
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, 1200dmg and drain 1200 morale

Adding this in as a mirror for the Solar Flare morale from KotBS fits with this spec line better. It also breaks up direct class mirroring and provides the Blackguard with a good warband level tool to bring to large engagements.

1200 morale drain? Mhh, sure. affected targets will still be at M3 plus if they got drained from M4 and it will take them 40 or so sec to get back up to M4, plenty of window to make a drain push, and then follow it up with a real push. Guess you can just stack solarflares now and drain the same targets more than once. Making this an order advantage because of the following:

I like the idea and reasoning for breaking the mirroring from knight to chosen, but this is legit one of the only things a BG will bring to warband play. Maybe its a good thing, but as a destro warband playing i would feel cheated having to bring 1-2 BGs now and not get the group benefits chosen or BO bring to the warband/parties, where as Order get the solarflare and knight warband utility/buffs all in one. BG is a smallscale tank imo and should maybe remain so? dunno


wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M2 - Skin of Iron

Current - Damage reduced to 1 for 5s
Proposed - 10s self buff, when attacked in melee disarm attacker for 5s

The existing implementation certainly had some positive feedback (expected as the invlunerability effect is obviously very strong), but there was also some significant confusion about what we meant. Part of what we wanted to change here was the invlunerability factor. Even with Shield Wall, you can still get hit from behind, and this is only an M2. Total damage immunity is pretty questionable for any effect. Limiting the effect to melee attackers would give more coverage than shield wall in the sense that any direction is affected, also prevents attacks from peeling off you and hitting your mates (if they disarmed after the first hit). This wouldn't affect ranged units, which leaves another window of opportunity open for the enemy realm. It's still very much a defensive tool, isn't total cheese, and provides a benefit for your melee groupmates as well as yourself.

Uhh.. Big one.. :? With how little CC order actually has on the Silence/disarm/stagger/knockdown immunity, i kinda like this one to hardcounter destro's melee style. But is it too potent? It is almost like when Order had BW only meta and Destro could counter it with BO m3. I would say its juuuust on the edge of being too strong? 3sec disarm maybe?

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M4 - Shadow Blades - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800 damage over 12s (500+x4 at 2-4s?), -28 morale per second note: broken / mitigated damage
Proposed - 30' PBAOE channel, 2700 damage over 9s (900x3 ticks at 3s), Pull up to 4 random targets up to 45' away to the center - ignores immunities.

Something about spinning around with a big sword just seems right. This is a pull effect similar to Choppa, the damage is significant as it's an interruptible channel. Ideally we would have the first pull go off before the damage starts ticking, and the last pull line up with the last tick. This would grab random players within 45', getting lucky means pulling in players that are outside the 30' damage radius.

More pulls? Not a fan tbh! Pulling should be just for Engineer and Magus, full stop. And the ignore immunity just sounds like something Destro will never accept, like how order have to deal with Zealot winds of insanity. Ignore immunities and pulls no thanks. Add an ap drain on the spin or something utility.

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M1 - Wings of Heaven

Current - Pounce up to 100' feet (really?) to your target. Snare enemies in the area by 60% for 10s
Proposed - Pounce up to 45' to your target, deal 600 damage to enemies within 20' when you land.

Bringing this range down to 45' and adding a bit of AOE splash damage on the landing instead of a vicious 60% snare should bring it in line with M1 effectiveness. Problems with very long movements like this come in two flavors, magically appearing tank elves due to server latency (kind of looks like warping), and the ability to get to places that probably shouldn't be gotten to. 45' is plenty for a front line tank to reasonably hop around.

Wings is a M2. Unless the original post was meant to say, you move it to be a new M1

Overall I like the direction, and even if the morales above is staying as they are, i think the game would be playable and fun. But it is really hard to judge propperly without knowing the rest of the puzzle with morale pumps/drains and how the two remaining archtypes look like. so im saving my juice for when we have all the pieces. Thanks for your work!
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#10 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:17 pm

Gonna note it here now, please refrain from using colors in your posts. It only gets harder to read if your posts look like a darn Christmas tree

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