Wam/TUP Order Pug Warband Template

[Wam]

Damn, as a fan of WL and 2h SM this is disheartening.

Is there a place for them at the endgame besides SC? Is there a place in RvR for classes that are not part of the wb meta?

yes in 6 man it can work... but that is very kitey/gank playstyle different to wb playstyle.

6 man is more about ST assist... wb is more about AOE assist (with some ST)

Sorry for asking, i`m a new player: what is this 6 man gameplay? Roaming with a 6 man group on the RvR lakes? How do you help your faction this way?

Btw thanks for the info, this helps a lot!

6 man is yes roaming with a 6 man group... so you are spec'd alot different to how you would for a warband... alot of different setups you can run... either serious or lolzy setups with a bit of cheese.

Its more self serving do what you can, get kills, gank people on their own and harass bigger groups... they cant do the heavy lifting like taking keeps and all that... they usually affraid of dying because reputation and kill death ratio but its the best way to level up with renown and medals... traditional setup 2 tanks (they can be 2hander for more ST burst and better CC) 2 single target dps and 2 healers... they would want to take items which give + speed boost, renown into quick escape to help run away...

say there is a keep under attack... you would put your 6 man in between enemy's most direct line to keep to cut off people who show up late and ambush them etc, so they "help" in someways like that... but its very loosely defined version of "help", most 6 man never had interest in campaign only easy farming for own needs and then joining sc to fight other 6 mans.

Usually tail other bigger groups, ride them steal kills/support them ... 6 vs 1 people who come out of warcamp the true 6 man way of life

Also with end game, if you class cities as being end game, wl and 2hander SM can be useful there if played right... just standard large scale orvr its different.

[Wam]

I only see 2 proper bw's on that list without further analysis... one is double what you did which reinforces the difference between BW and WL.. bombling maybe supported, other bw maybe less supported.

But thankyou for trying to prove a point

I see alot of bw high kills, little death in comparison if you was going into K D R ...

also i know WL can get high kills in proper 6 man (lob etc)... but talking about large scale play

This actual zone, I was without guard the whole game though with rly quick resses.
Also Wam, I'm sry if i missunderstood your text "show me screenshots of your killscore from a warband in large scale and compared to other proper dps players/classes that are equally supported"... I dont know where I missunderstood you (though my native tongue isn't English).

nonono... you totaly read it right... wammy just wants to change the rules once he were proven wrong. a screen was asked for and given but it is still not good enough
no worries mate wammy is a god and we should all feel blessed by his (and lets not forget his fanbois) precence

I have no fanbois... I dont want no fanbois

you showed a ss which you thought proved me wrong... but i dismissed it because it showed a BW doing twice as good as you... i mean its not that hard to comprehend, that is just difference of opinion... you try to make it personal but i do not care... I agree to disagree.

And I also made point of noting about LOB... because ive seen them get 100-200 kills with low deaths (alot higher than you got) in 6 man style of fighting... i am on about large scale... but i don't remember ever seeing CNTK... VII... BEAVERS... THUNDERCATS... or any other order guild in large scale enviroment having a white lion out kill a BW (even though a WL is a good deathblow kill stealer) the BW is going to pump out alot more damage and be more useful for large scale enviroment... that is the point i am making... you want to defend WL and say its viable and competitive... the best SS you showed me, shows its half as good as BW. If you are min maxing, that is not good enough why would you bother taking something half as good.

Some WL players who are not biased seem to agree, that compared to BW/SL its a bit lacking in that department... which is no shame because BW is the king of AOE dps and always has been... and slayer is pretty strong too...

You see i am trying to give honest and open feedback, so new players can make a more informed decision on what they want, stylistically what suits their needs... and **** show distractions like yours who get feelings hurt because oh no he says my class is not as good as you think it is really gets in the way and derails what this is about... so please if you got any more salt get it out of your system.

After killing a few hundred thousand people over the years... i am pretty sure i would remember if i saw a WL be top dog in a warband AND THAT IS ALSO WHEN THEY WAS ON STEROIDS BEFORE BEING NERFED... so yeah please enlighten me some more

[Direbloodykiller]

This actual zone, I was without guard the whole game though with rly quick resses.
Also Wam, I'm sry if i missunderstood your text "show me screenshots of your killscore from a warband in large scale and compared to other proper dps players/classes that are equally supported"... I dont know where I missunderstood you (though my native tongue isn't English).

nonono... you totaly read it right... wammy just wants to change the rules once he were proven wrong. a screen was asked for and given but it is still not good enough
no worries mate wammy is a god and we should all feel blessed by his (and lets not forget his fanbois) precence

I have no fanbois... I dont want no fanbois

you showed a ss which you thought proved me wrong... but i dismissed it because it showed a BW doing twice as good as you... i mean its not that hard to comprehend, that is just difference of opinion... you try to make it personal but i do not care... I agree to disagree.

And I also made point of noting about LOB... because ive seen them get 100-200 kills with low deaths (alot higher than you got) in 6 man style of fighting... i am on about large scale... but i don't remember ever seeing CNTK... VII... BEAVERS... THUNDERCATS... or any other order guild in large scale enviroment having a white lion out kill a BW (even though a WL is a good deathblow kill stealer) the BW is going to pump out alot more damage and be more useful for large scale enviroment... that is the point i am making... you want to defend WL and say its viable and competitive... the best SS you showed me, shows its half as good as BW. If you are min maxing, that is not good enough why would you bother taking something half as good.

Some WL players who are not biased seem to agree, that compared to BW/SL its a bit lacking in that department... which is no shame because BW is the king of AOE dps and always has been... and slayer is pretty strong too...

You see i am trying to give honest and open feedback, so new players can make a more informed decision on what they want, stylistically what suits their needs... and **** show distractions like yours who get feelings hurt because oh no he says my class is not as good as you think it is really gets in the way and derails what this is about... so please if you got any more salt get it out of your system.

After killing a few hundred thousand people over the years... i am pretty sure i would remember if i saw a WL be top dog in a warband AND THAT IS ALSO WHEN THEY WAS ON STEROIDS BEFORE BEING NERFED... so yeah please enlighten me some more

i never showed you a ss... some who plays lion did get your facts straight
lemme take the opportunity to also give you a friendly reminder about bolster yourself to the skies about how much you know... you asked for a ss -> got it -> descarded it of some shitty thing you came up with afterwards
there was also (if true) 25 bws in the zone... bombling beat them all... the fact that you dont pay more attention to the other 24 bws that gets beaten buy at least 3 other wls (of which secrets is the only known and probably the only one pocketed with guard and heals) proves bias towards that you only dont want to "lose" something you stirred up as a challenge

[Wam]

nonono... you totaly read it right... wammy just wants to change the rules once he were proven wrong. a screen was asked for and given but it is still not good enough
no worries mate wammy is a god and we should all feel blessed by his (and lets not forget his fanbois) precence

I have no fanbois... I dont want no fanbois

you showed a ss which you thought proved me wrong... but i dismissed it because it showed a BW doing twice as good as you... i mean its not that hard to comprehend, that is just difference of opinion... you try to make it personal but i do not care... I agree to disagree.

And I also made point of noting about LOB... because ive seen them get 100-200 kills with low deaths (alot higher than you got) in 6 man style of fighting... i am on about large scale... but i don't remember ever seeing CNTK... VII... BEAVERS... THUNDERCATS... or any other order guild in large scale enviroment having a white lion out kill a BW (even though a WL is a good deathblow kill stealer) the BW is going to pump out alot more damage and be more useful for large scale enviroment... that is the point i am making... you want to defend WL and say its viable and competitive... the best SS you showed me, shows its half as good as BW. If you are min maxing, that is not good enough why would you bother taking something half as good.

Some WL players who are not biased seem to agree, that compared to BW/SL its a bit lacking in that department... which is no shame because BW is the king of AOE dps and always has been... and slayer is pretty strong too...

You see i am trying to give honest and open feedback, so new players can make a more informed decision on what they want, stylistically what suits their needs... and **** show distractions like yours who get feelings hurt because oh no he says my class is not as good as you think it is really gets in the way and derails what this is about... so please if you got any more salt get it out of your system.

After killing a few hundred thousand people over the years... i am pretty sure i would remember if i saw a WL be top dog in a warband AND THAT IS ALSO WHEN THEY WAS ON STEROIDS BEFORE BEING NERFED... so yeah please enlighten me some more

i never showed you a ss... some who plays lion did get your facts straight
lemme take the opportunity to also give you a friendly reminder about bolster yourself to the skies about how much you know... you asked for a ss -> got it -> descarded it of some shitty thing you came up with afterwards
there was also (if true) 25 bws in the zone... bombling beat them all... the fact that you dont pay more attention to the other 24 bws that gets beaten buy at least 3 other wls (of which secrets is the only known and probably the only one pocketed with guard and heals) proves bias towards that you only dont want to "lose" something you stirred up as a challenge

you are not the sharpest tool in the shed bro

there is multiple reasons why he can be above some bw's... I.e more time spent in the zone and others start later... playing more reckless, I see some other bw's getting alot of kills and very little deaths... where the WL's are dying ALOT... thats okay if you like dying and thats your playstyle

Also screenshot shows only killing blow, it wont show the damage done and white lion is a good kill stealing death blow class which is general knowledge and shouldnt need to be pointed out...

I compared him to a proper BW who was obviously active during this time... proper bw does twice as much and you still want to make a argument out of nothing...

I can show you screenshot of a proper bw in tier 1, getting 300-1 death and only reason he died cause of answering a pm... let's see WL do the same you can twist screenshot to fit your agenda...

Kill death ratio ...

113 - 1 = 113 BW
62 - 8 = 7.75 WL
54 - 14 = 3.85 WL
50 - 15 = 3.3 WL
46 - 2 = 23 BW
46 - 11 = 4.8 BW
44 - 5 = 8.8 SL
38 - 3 = 7.66 BW
36 - 9 = 4 WP
35 - 3 = 11.6 BW


113 BW
23 BW
11.6 BW
8.8 SL
7.75 WL
7.66 BW

yes white lion is so amazing it has 7.75 KDR ... i would use LOB as a example as they are one of the best around if their DPS players had a KDR of 7.75 they would disband uninstall the game in shame and never speak of it again... you know they are usually 200-2? and from premade warband you would want alot higher KDR than 7.75 on your weakest inexperienced dps player let alone your best...

I see a warrior priest is above other wl's with a mighty KDR of 4... so does that make dps wp viable? no... you can pull and take what you want from SS if you analyse properly... but 4 out of the top 6 is BW and by a bigger margin, so their potential is alot higher... but what do i know huh? I am not the realm hero or biased player trying to defend a class... i am just bringer of truth and experience... but yeah keep on arguing for arguements sake and dig deeper and deeper the hole which all those dead white lion pets will fill.

[toffikx]

Sorry for asking, i`m a new player: what is this 6 man gameplay? Roaming with a 6 man group on the RvR lakes? How do you help your faction this way?
Btw thanks for the info, this helps a lot!

6 man gameplay is roaming in RvR lakes, doing scenarios and the specific 6v6 scenario. It’s s lot of fun and lets you play to the fullest potential of Warhammer PvP. There’s plenty of guilds that do this kind of content. There’s even a 6v6 league going on.

[wonshot]

Hi Wam! Nice and honest post, I find it very accurate and fullheartedly support it.

As for that random screenshot, let me clear some of that mess up.
I was in there with a guard and 1-2 guildies on their healers, basicly fully supported to powerlevel their rp and medals in a Reikwald fort in old NA hours. (this speaks volume)
Sure I got more killing blows in a winningfort than Whitelions who were either solo, roaming, or well supported aswel. And I stole the Rain of Fire spot from all other Brightwizards so thats probably why you see me up there and not some other BW, Rain of Fire can only be applied by one BW at a time..
Basicly, this screenshot is as random as it can get imho. As it doesnt tell the strory.

On the topic of Brightwizard being king of aoe, Yes that is true! The class brings close to no utility, mobility, and the strength of the class is pure offensive firepower with party offensive procs while the luxury of being a ranged class so you dont even have to fully commit as melee archtypes does.

Whitelion is an other aoe class that brings almost no utility compared to the Slayerclass(as its a fair comparison) Slayer brings Shattered limbs and Rampage + Retribution burst, but has no offensive morale.
WL does have an offensive M2, bit better sticking power the only selfpump in the game with a penalty (!?) and aoe healdebuff proc on weapon in an attempt to make it seem like a slayer. Any of these Order dps classes where you have to break or not use the Classmechanic is close to dead on arrivale compared to what a BW or Slayer can bring on top of their class mechanics.

Whitelion can work! in City warband for min maxing our guys run with Secret's lion to greeeeat succes fitting our style of play, but for singletarget healerkilling.
For oRvR facing zergs and min-max warband warfare we have a common understanding that WL is not as the "Brightwizard bullshit"

Now for pugging and doing aoe whitelion stuff, sure it can work when your warband already have achieved high enough criticalmass and its just about cleaving through the masses, then it doesnt really matter who lands the killingblows. Some DPS-players might be more about stealing or securing the kills and do it more often than not, and some classes will do the job automatically. But bringing the mucle damage numbers is finally something we can track with Citysiege scoreboards. And I see no AOE WL coming even close to the Brightwizard, and THAT is the point Wam is making! Brightwizard brings the aoedamage presure you want to build around in a warband setting for bombing, if you replaced all the BWs in a warband comp with WLs you would still have some level of criticalmass and be more mobile. But the damage for sure would not be the same. Would it be enough? Who knows, someone go try!

[Direbloodykiller]

I have no fanbois... I dont want no fanbois

you showed a ss which you thought proved me wrong... but i dismissed it because it showed a BW doing twice as good as you... i mean its not that hard to comprehend, that is just difference of opinion... you try to make it personal but i do not care... I agree to disagree.

And I also made point of noting about LOB... because ive seen them get 100-200 kills with low deaths (alot higher than you got) in 6 man style of fighting... i am on about large scale... but i don't remember ever seeing CNTK... VII... BEAVERS... THUNDERCATS... or any other order guild in large scale enviroment having a white lion out kill a BW (even though a WL is a good deathblow kill stealer) the BW is going to pump out alot more damage and be more useful for large scale enviroment... that is the point i am making... you want to defend WL and say its viable and competitive... the best SS you showed me, shows its half as good as BW. If you are min maxing, that is not good enough why would you bother taking something half as good.

Some WL players who are not biased seem to agree, that compared to BW/SL its a bit lacking in that department... which is no shame because BW is the king of AOE dps and always has been... and slayer is pretty strong too...

You see i am trying to give honest and open feedback, so new players can make a more informed decision on what they want, stylistically what suits their needs... and **** show distractions like yours who get feelings hurt because oh no he says my class is not as good as you think it is really gets in the way and derails what this is about... so please if you got any more salt get it out of your system.

After killing a few hundred thousand people over the years... i am pretty sure i would remember if i saw a WL be top dog in a warband AND THAT IS ALSO WHEN THEY WAS ON STEROIDS BEFORE BEING NERFED... so yeah please enlighten me some more

i never showed you a ss... some who plays lion did get your facts straight
lemme take the opportunity to also give you a friendly reminder about bolster yourself to the skies about how much you know... you asked for a ss -> got it -> descarded it of some shitty thing you came up with afterwards
there was also (if true) 25 bws in the zone... bombling beat them all... the fact that you dont pay more attention to the other 24 bws that gets beaten buy at least 3 other wls (of which secrets is the only known and probably the only one pocketed with guard and heals) proves bias towards that you only dont want to "lose" something you stirred up as a challenge

you are not the sharpest tool in the shed bro

there is multiple reasons why he can be above some bw's... I.e more time spent in the zone and others start later... playing more reckless, I see some other bw's getting alot of kills and very little deaths... where the WL's are dying ALOT... thats okay if you like dying and thats your playstyle

Also screenshot shows only killing blow, it wont show the damage done and white lion is a good kill stealing death blow class which is general knowledge and shouldnt need to be pointed out...

I compared him to a proper BW who was obviously active during this time... proper bw does twice as much and you still want to make a argument out of nothing...

I can show you screenshot of a proper bw in tier 1, getting 300-1 death and only reason he died cause of answering a pm... let's see WL do the same you can twist screenshot to fit your agenda...

Kill death ratio ...

113 - 1 = 113 BW
62 - 8 = 7.75 WL
54 - 14 = 3.85 WL
50 - 15 = 3.3 WL
46 - 2 = 23 BW
46 - 11 = 4.8 BW
44 - 5 = 8.8 SL
38 - 3 = 7.66 BW
36 - 9 = 4 WP
35 - 3 = 11.6 BW


113 BW
23 BW
11.6 BW
8.8 SL
7.75 WL
7.66 BW

yes white lion is so amazing it has 7.75 KDR ... i would use LOB as a example as they are one of the best around if their DPS players had a KDR of 7.75 they would disband uninstall the game in shame and never speak of it again... you know they are usually 200-2? and from premade warband you would want alot higher KDR than 7.75 on your weakest inexperienced dps player let alone your best...

I see a warrior priest is above other wl's with a mighty KDR of 4... so does that make dps wp viable? no... you can pull and take what you want from SS if you analyse properly... but 4 out of the top 6 is BW and by a bigger margin, so their potential is alot higher... but what do i know huh? I am not the realm hero or biased player trying to defend a class... i am just bringer of truth and experience... but yeah keep on arguing for arguements sake and dig deeper and deeper the hole which all those dead white lion pets will fill.

1. sister if i may (yes, females play this game aswell)
2. the response you initial got was to the red text which was show me kills (don't change what you actually said with "well i meant" then make a new statement)
3. youre still not smart enough to comprehend that im not the lion in the ss

[Noan]

yes in 6 man it can work... but that is very kitey/gank playstyle different to wb playstyle.

6 man is more about ST assist... wb is more about AOE assist (with some ST)

Sorry for asking, i`m a new player: what is this 6 man gameplay? Roaming with a 6 man group on the RvR lakes? How do you help your faction this way?

Btw thanks for the info, this helps a lot!

6 man is yes roaming with a 6 man group... so you are spec'd alot different to how you would for a warband... alot of different setups you can run... either serious or lolzy setups with a bit of cheese.

Its more self serving do what you can, get kills, gank people on their own and harass bigger groups... they cant do the heavy lifting like taking keeps and all that... they usually affraid of dying because reputation and kill death ratio but its the best way to level up with renown and medals... traditional setup 2 tanks (they can be 2hander for more ST burst and better CC) 2 single target dps and 2 healers... they would want to take items which give + speed boost, renown into quick escape to help run away...

say there is a keep under attack... you would put your 6 man in between enemy's most direct line to keep to cut off people who show up late and ambush them etc, so they "help" in someways like that... but its very loosely defined version of "help", most 6 man never had interest in campaign only easy farming for own needs and then joining sc to fight other 6 mans.

Usually tail other bigger groups, ride them steal kills/support them ... 6 vs 1 people who come out of warcamp the true 6 man way of life

Also with end game, if you class cities as being end game, wl and 2hander SM can be useful there if played right... just standard large scale orvr its different.

Thanks a lot for the comprehensive answer! That gives me some hope to keep playing those classes. If i can do something, even something small as ganking, to help out on RvR and can be effective on City sieges, its enough for me to keep playing these classes.

Does Destro has a similar meta with the classes counterparts?