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Marsares wrote:
On a positive note, I see a shift in the meta happening. Azareal made some comments about bombing, and there are a lot of discussions happening about single target assist trains. I think that on smaller scale ST remains the viable option, whilst on larger scale fights we will start seeing a hybrid of AOE/ST emerge where AOE provides pressure damage and ST the required burst to push someone into their grave.
This ....... this this this this this!!!!
THIS!!!!
Single target assist trains weren't popular because Assist didn't work. Enemy can't create it's own chat channel, nor can other Mods, so assisting was pretty difficult. This isn't even taking into account the lag and hop-warping issues that melee outside EU suffers. People played what they could make work with what they had.
People need to remember how much of this game wasn't "open" or working in the last year. Also, we are in T3. I'm glad you are all seeing these cool meta's and systems to use. The reason they weren't in Live, is because 1, there was no 35/40 cap, there was T4, the server worked a lot differently.
Considering how many players are waiting for T4 to return, or just lvling alts... I honestly think that we haven't seen nothing yet in terms of competitive gameplay.
But who knows, I could just be bending over and pulling this out of the usual spot...
This doesn't make any sense. Why would a tank waste their guard on a pet that dies in 2 hits anyways, has pathing issues so bad nobody can tell where it actually is on the map, and will disappear anyways if the player dies? It's more efficient to guard the WL player themselves than the pet.
Also, this setup will do mediocre (at best) dps extremely situationally. Whirling axe and slashing blade are so awful for AP management that the WL player will be stuck waiting for regen half the time, and run out of gas before being able to successfully burst anybody down.
The '6-man meta' is really the only viable path for WLs because it's the most capable of consistent burst (that doesn't require a tank and several AMs working in precise tandem for a once-in-a-blue-moon moment of okay dps) and doesn't depend so much on the pet, which is unreliable even on its best days.
Overall, this seems like an awful lot of coordination to do what a single slayer could do ten times better.
Please tell me if anyone knows anyone that has tried what i'm talking about in this particular post and done it in a very serious way? I've always wanted to do this stuff but I have lacked the player interest due to mixed being more popular and everyone saying HE groups can't be done. I had a steady 5 man HE group but lacked a steady WL to try out my idea's. I played a SM at the time. I had a WL but then we would have lacked a 2nd SM which was too much of a burden on the group I felt.
High elf Bomb
Introduction
This is a 12 man HE build. This group has a bomb component to it but doesn't have to be played as such. The bomb really starts shining at the 12 man level and isn't so powerful prior due to the limitation of 6 man builds. I'm trying to showcase the WL in this build and make it a somewhat Orvr build. What I'm trying to do in this bomb group is stack a lot of AoE in one location for about 10 sec's or 15 sec's at most. After which you single target burn down whats low then run away, regain AP on WL's. Rinse Repeat. Its a short bomb group/Harassment group built to be annoying as hell in Open RVR.
High Elf Strengths
Spoiler:
AoE snare’s from AM’s and Wings.
WL's pounce ability (used to do AoE damage upon landing making this build stronger)
Critting your balls off
Massive spirit resist debuff’s and access to a lot of spirit damage
Amazing single target damage potential
Access to fast single target morale boosters (Bolstering Boon tactic AM)
A 65ft threat range of Bombing
Access to a dumb amount of absorbs.
Very bursty
instant rezing
High Elf Weaknesses
Spoiler:
Paper thin Archmages
AP issue's on Shadow warriors
WL can't do sustain damage for long periods due to AP issues Which in my opinion should always be like this.
Doesn't have amazing morale bombs like other racials (<--- forget about this part if you think you can't do morale bombs)
You can't cleanse curses (which means choppa, Dps Dok, Sorcs, Chosens will be a problem for you)
Your High Elves and a pansie
Classes used
4 isha Archmages
2 Hunter White lions
2 Hoeth Swordmasters
2 Khaine Swordmasters
2 Dps Archmages or 2 Vaul Archmages Or 1 dps am/1Vaul Its flexible.
Note:
Spoiler:
The Vaul Archmages actually support the bomb better then the DPS AM's due to Whisper and energy of vaul spamming synergy. Dps Am's are Boss at single target and can support a bomb through dissapating energies but vaul's do it better. its a trade-off. The Vaul Archmages are a support class and shouldn't be thought of as a healing class. The ranged debuffing is there to ensure targets are debuffed prior to engagements. Alternatively you can take a shadow warrior. Shadow warrior gives you access to Lots of CC options/heal debuff/group crit/interesting morale bomb components but you lose a AoE snare/morale pumps vs the dps AM and doesn't take advantage of the spirit debuff, its a trade off. Pick your flavor.
This build I'm listing above probably doesn't have the most ideal tank setup. I have too put more thought into it. I just wanted to show my approach on building this HE group. I am unsure how needed the khaine SM's are. !00% certain each group should have a Hoeth SM in it.
There are alternative builds you can do for this.
Such as:
2 ish AM's
2 Vaul AM's
2 Hoeth SM's for double whisper
You can constantly spam Energy of Vaul with this build. Which is decent Ap damage long range and gives you 6 AE snares. In this post though I'm trying to showcase the WL.
Mixed groups
Spoiler:
You can bring 2 WP to cleanse curses and their tricks. Know your losing 2 AoE snares, Morale boosting tricks, 2 ranged AE knockback's. 2 Max resist buff enchantments, Ranged AP drains, AM's can heal on the move a little better then WP. 2, ST jesus beams, bragging rights that it's a racial group. When you win against mix premades you got massive bragging rights. If you lose, The meta says your suppose too so no big deal. If they lose its a pretty big embarrassment.
To take 2 WP is a trade off. Pick your flavor.
Having 2 max resist buff enchantments is nice so if 1 gets stripped away you have a back up. Know the classes that can strip your enchantments and play accordingly and passively throw out the resist enchants when playing against them and after engagements. If your running more then 2 am's in a group like a Vaul or asuryan use their trashy resist buff's also as protection against stripping.
I can't stress enough HOW important the AoE snare is. Without the AoE snare's coming from the SM's/AM's this build would be completely un-viable. In this 12 man you have:
6 placable AoE snares coming from the AM's
4 Wings of heaven morale 2's from SM's
You have to become DUMB good at placing down snares as a team. This is something you might even want to talk about and practice even before going into combat. Do it for like 5 minutes to get the feel. You will need to call out your snare's on comms. The play-style Hinges on this. If you can't get DUMB good at placing down snares forget about this build. You also have access to 4 to 6 AE ranged knockbacks 4 of which will likely be instant due to isha AM's and 4 AE knockbacks coming from SM's. High Elves are designed to control the movement portion of the fight in my opinion... just like greenskins.
How this Group works:
There is a frontline and backline to this group. The backline is protected by your AoE close/ranged knockbacks and AE snares. Everyone in the group including isha AM's has a assist macro key made and main assists on targets when needed. Shouldn't have to be said but ya never know.
Kite/Hunt Mode
Your leading groups with your SM's and WL pets.
SM's guard WL and his pet. If you think guarding the WL pet is stupid then don't do it... SM1 guards SM2. SM2 guards WL. SM's and WL pet are frontline looking for targets. WL stays in backline until targets are found kinda protecting AM's. Your trying to web targets with your snares like a spider kinda. Only use what you need on your AE snares. Your snares are your offense/defense for the group. The AE snares is literally the power of the group.
Strike mode
WL switches to hunt stance. Pounce in Single target kill whatever. Run behind snares and go back in kite mode.
Strike Bomb mode (Slightly modified from first post/copy pasted)
Spoiler:
Once pets are in a healthy amount of zerg/or targets are good enough to bomb. Switch stance to trained to hunt and Pounce in with the 2 WL's. The SM's are already there.
AE snare (Marsh) the target location for a initiative debuff if it isn't already.
SM's pop Wrath of hoeth for AE spirit debuff and possible triggering of heaven's blade dropping spirit resist to zero.
If you have Dps AM's pop dissapating energies on both WL's.
AM's due AE ap drain at target location for protection
Upon landing both WL's pop echoing Roar for 4 15 sec AE spirit damage dots due to pets being at that location.
Both WL pop Whirling Axe to apply Centuries of training dot/hunter stance dot.
Start a Whisper wind cycle with SM's
If you have Vaul AM's start spamming Energy of Vaul at target location. Spam possible due to whisper.
Dps Am's either start spam dotting radiant gaze on targets in the marsh or spam forked lance if the tactic is slotted or spam Fury of Asurayan.
Khaine SM's use Ether dance for stat steal at that location/ or blurring shock for ST assist after bomb.
Once WL is done or interrupted from whirling Axe spam Slashing blade or spam Lion's fury on low health players until you run out of AP.
All dps classes and tanks should probably have Centuries of training tactic sloted. Your applying a stupid amount of Spirit damage done in one spot. Spirit damage is debuffed at that location due to marsh/wrath of hoeth + heaven's blade and initiative debuffed. Heaven's blade Stacks with marsh/wrath of hoeth. Its a MASSIVE spirit resist debuff. Even if you bring a discord chosen it won't matter. That combo drops spirit resistence to zero or damn near zero.
Morale boosting tricks
Spoiler:
With a Easy tactic slot switch you can have 6 bolstering boon tactics slotted in this group set up. Thats potentially 1500 morale gain if hard casted Boon of Hysh. That takes 2 Sec's to get one SM or WL 1500 morale gain. The Vaul or Dps Am's can passively instant cast Boon of Hysh this due to their mechanic. So Dps/Vaul AM's are feeding 250 morale every 6th ability use. You don't need to just pump up one target with morale gain. You have options to split up the morale gain as you want too. Note:
Genisaurus wrote:The morale bar is 3600 points.
You need 360, 720, 1800, and 3600 moral total for each level.
You generate 10 morale each second that you are in combat, base.
So You can take 3 AM's with bolstering boon tactic slotted Hard cast Boon of Hysh taking 2 sec's and 1 of your SM's will have Wings of heaven. Just things to think on... Think about all the combo's you could do... It takes about 4 or 5 sec's too get a single character 3000 morale which is almost to his morale 4 ability. If you guys still want to dismiss what I'm saying...
Special notes on the HE bomb
This bomb isn't like other bombs which is dependant on 1 or 2 classes like sorc's/BW. This Bomb requires the coordination of many classes doing something specific at the time of Bombing. Energy of Vaul + Whisper wind is your greatest source of AP direct damage on this bomb. The WL's provide the dot portion through Echo's Roar + Whirling axe applying mass centuries of training + Trained to hunt dot. The WL's also have a morale Bomb component you can add on top of this.
Know that this group is 100% functional without the morale bombs attached. Its just not as strong without it.
Morale Bomb component
Spoiler:
WL m2 bomb
You can push your 2 WL's easily to their morale 2's (flying Axe) in just 2 sec's with 3 AM's boosting. Then release the bomb.
WL m3 bomb
The WL pet used to do a AE 30ft 1200 damage silence m3. To me this is enough to guard the pet when the WL is loaded with his M3. This got taken away by mythic because at the time the community saw no value in this and was requesting something different. It got replaced with Dominance m3 for more mirror pushing. I remember the arguments. I was playing a WL at the time and crying in the corner...on what was happening. I was protesting this change at the time but my protests fell on deaf ears because mixed group meta was more popular.
You could have super charged your two WL's with 3 AM's each boosting their morale. It would have taken roughly 8 to 10 seconds to push your 2 WL's to their morale 3's with the morale boosting trick I mentioned above. This would have been 2400 30ft + silence instant morale damage on top of the AP damage being done. Or you could have morale boosted 1 WL and it would have taken about 4 to 7 sec's to get to his m3 silence for 1200 damage 30ft + silence. We can't do this now.
WL m4 bomb
You can still do a Morale 4 push on the 2 WL's with tooth and claw for 4800 damage 30ft. This is on top of all the normal ap damage being done. It will take roughly 12 to 14 ish sec's to super morale charge your 2 WL's with 3 AM's. You can super charge 1 WL for 2400 damage 30ft in about 6 to 8 sec's if ur boosting with 6 AM's.
In all this I'm not including the close bond tactic that can be used to increase WL morale gain even more.
By the way you can't do these tricks with WP's...
I've only focused on the WL... There is SOOO many tricks that can be done with this morale boosting from the AM's. Like potentially boosting a path of Vaul SM for his morale 4. So so so many tricks.
So many playstyles and tricks open up when you get beyond 6 man meta and start looking at 12 man plus.
Please also note: There used to be a racial morale gain tactic which allowed for 5% additional morale gain for either a 30% or 25% faster gain of morale then normal. So this stuff was even more viable back in the day.
Tips and Tricks
Spoiler:
Tactic slot switches/gear swaps
This group really doesn't have to be bomb orientated at all. With easy preset tactic slot switching/gear swaps you can make this group a really really nasty single target assist group. The group is a lot more tactically flexible/robust then it seems.
How to do tactic slot switches as a group.
Have a preset plan to handle different situations as a group with the correct tactic slot switches slotted and gear swap to compliment your plan.
Look at your opposition before the fight begins. This either in the begining of a SC or out in Orvr. If in orvr you might have the wrong tactics slotted/Gear swap and get wiped... whatever. After being wiped do as a group a quick tactic slot switch/gear swap to rapidly adapt to counter what was brought. Recognize what the high dps classes that were brought against you were. Have a preset tactic slot switches set up prior to engagements to handle different situations along with gear swaps.
These tactic slot switches/gear swaps require a mountain of thought/trial and error testing to find the sweet spot.
Have Preset tactic slot switches/gear swaps for heavy choppa/mara/WE mdps groups
Honestly with smart use of your snares/knockbacks this HE group should dominate mdps focused groups. You have to have enough room to move around though. Pick fight locations that benefit to your playstyle. If a Mdps uses their immunity to snares you have options. You can either knock them back and kite or snare their guarding tanks then just ST burn down unguarded mdps when they outrun their guards. Your trying to get the mdps to over extend past their guards. WE focused groups may give this group problems though.
Have Preset tactic slot switches/gear swaps for Heavy Sorc/SH/Magus rdps groups (make use of HTL techniques)
This group has access to high disrupt tanks and with the proper gear you can get it stupid high using HTL techniques. The problem is the SH doesn't care about disrupt. The SH has to respect your WL threat range thou.
Guessing has to be trialed and tested.
Vs Heavy magus/sorc's groups everyone should have a disrupt set. Tanks swap their greatweapons for shields for Hold the line techniques. Hoeth SM slot Calming winds tactic. SM's switch to Phantom's blade enchant during kite mode. Switch to heaven's blade/stat steal during strike mode.
Here's what sucks... WL m3 silence from the pet was a serious hard counter and cost you basically nothing...
Greenskinz still have the hard counter with Deafening bellow m3 from the BO.
Tips
Wings of Heaven on the SM has a 100ft reach while the WL only has a 65 ft reach on pounce. If your chasing down targets and they are not in reach of your WL. Wings a SM in run infront of the group trying to get away AE knockback so the targets are knocked towards your WL. Targets should still be snared and the WL's can pounce in.
Just some observations:
If you use Blessing of Heaven tactic on the Hoeth SM's you are healing everyone that's doing AoE damage at the bomb location.
Its taken me hours to write this. I'll edit and continue it later.
I'll talk later about ideal tactic use per class/tactic slot switches/Hold the line techniques.
Note: I don't know what RoR did with the pathing on the WL pet. Because it is wonky now. I agree that when your fighting in close spaces your probably shouldn't guard the pet. Guarding the pet is situational. The pet doesn't get a guard 100% of the time. The pet gets a floated guard... because its a pet and not a player...
The groups I'm talking about above shines in Sc's like Nordland beach, Caledor woods, Serpents Passage, Open spaces. This group is highly dependent on open locations and kiting. It does not do well in close spaces where you can't use range as defense. This group isn't faceroll easy. This group doesn't do close combat sustained damage well. Corners are fine but hallways and buildings are DEATH to this group. The group above should also DOMINATE the lakes in Orvr.
This is the stuff I was working towards on in live.
Note:
Spoiler:
You probably only have 6 months to a year to try out the builds I'm listing. The dev's and balance team have a different understanding on balance then I do. They will change the game to fit their vision and not mine, which is fine. Its their server and they put in the work. I'm super glad I get to play this game and super appreciative of their work.
The stuff I write about is what was possible in live and can be done here if RoR is restoring the game to the live condition. Maybe this stuff has been tried and found not rewarding enough to warrant its use as a RoR dev told me once. I don't know. I only know things from my gaming perspective. I've played this game from release to near death. I've never seen or heard about the stuff I'm talking about done in a serious way. Have you guys?
If you actually made it this far in reading this post Congratulations.
