[Magus] Why so weak?

[peterthepan3]

The current meta and meta thats dominated this game is a kiting meta. So it seems that the magus/engie is weak because players are used to pugging and don't fully utilize group synergy. When players Pug they participate in the kiting meta.

You don't have to play this game in the kiting playstyle. You can make a stupid strong group that can be played statically.

I've played in/lead static premade groups. You pick a spot and own it. You dare the opposition to get close to you. The magus/Engineer is critical in those groups. There are many situations in this game that utilize this style of play such as:

Fighting in in-closed spaces. Hallways/Doorways/Tunnels/Chokepoints.
Holding a BO with some type of terrain features. (not completely open terrian, It can be done but its the weakest here.)
Keep defenses hallways.

These static premade groups depend highly on being able to permanently hold the line if the situation calls for it. Again this requires at minimum 3 tanks. Because of this, static premade groups do better in a 12 man setting. It also utilizes body blocking hence formations. Static premade groups can outlast horrific damage and can dish out tons of damage if concentrated on a specific spot. Which is usually the spot they are claiming/standing in. The static premade groups also require a high amount of coordination to get max effect.

Why hasn't Static meta taken off?
Introduction to pvp is through kiting meta.
High amounts of coordination. (actually controlling people's movement/having formations. You move as a extremely close knit cluster. You don't really move a lot with these groups so its less exciting.)
Heavy use of hold the line/perma HTL (HTL in the competitive setting always has been slightly unpopular)
Requires 12 man setting to really get good due to HTL. (Most people just pug, Then try 6 man. Rarely expand to anything higher.)
Having good tanks. Tanks able to rotating challenge shouts/switchin guards coordinate with each other blah blah.
You don't chase targets down if your trying to hold a position. Less exciting.
The playstyle is extremely different then the kiting playstyle, hence leaving their comfort zone.

Most people haven't played this type of playstyle. Engie's/Magus are built almost purely for this style of play. So its percieved that these classes are weak because they are playing a static class in a kiting meta.

1) If you stand still and expect a competent enemy to come to YOU and play to your purported strengths, then....:/
2) Can you expand on what you mean by 'magus are built almost purely for this style of play'?
3) No, the Magus/Engi ARE weak because of their clunky mechanic, dots dealing low damage, and lack of a niche outside of rifting/lack of healdebuff etc.
4) Noone has said the magus/engi can't be effective in warband-size orvr. This topic is talking about the Magus/Engi in smaller environments, in which it IS weak.

[footpatrol2]

1) If you stand still and expect a competent enemy to come to YOU and play to your purported strengths, then....:/
2) Can you expand on what you mean by 'magus are built almost purely for this style of play'?
3) No, the Magus/Engi ARE weak because of their clunky mechanic, dots dealing low damage, and lack of a niche outside of rifting/lack of healdebuff etc.
4) Noone has said the magus/engi can't be effective in warband-size orvr. This topic is talking about the Magus/Engi in smaller environments, in which it IS weak.

1) The group is built to take and hold battle objectives. Its a defensive style of play. Its not about chasing down enemies and killing everyone. Its about outlasting horrible damage and using the game mechanics to win. In addition the group isn't entirely static. It can move but is done so in a very controlled fashion and in a cluster/formation. It can be so static that you call out on comms that the group is going to move though.

Here is some examples of picking good fight locations.
Mourkain temple Park group on top of the murder ball spawn point. When it spawns pick it up. Move the group to a hallway body block entry with high avoidence tanks = win. OR just sit on the murder ball spawn point to deny access.
Temple of isha Park group on flag = win
Caledor woods Park group on flag = win (back when it was more then 6 man)
Tavern/building Battle objectives (which this game has plenty of) park group at doorway take objective (to me) = win
Keep defense Park group in keep hallway deny access (to me) = win
I could keep going but the list is very very long.

If there is nothing to fight over... your right why would they come to me. Which is why its important to pick good fight locations that benefit to this style of play. Your constantly using terrain with these defensive groups. Which is also why this group is weaker in open terrain.

2) The magus/engie have their static pet mechanic. You gain a 20% damage boost by being close to your pet that happens over time. To get the most out of your class you want to stay close to your pet which can't move... which is amazingly god awlful in a kiting meta to have. In these defensive groups that i'm talking about the magus/engie will have a 20% near constant damage boost by not kiting. In addition there are a lot of abilities that need to be hard casted. Hard casting decreases your kiting ability. The class in my opinion isn't designed with the intention of kiting.

Mist/Napalm Use mist/napalm defensively. Have the entire group (6 man or 12 man) stack in the mist/napalm. Now your entire group has a damage shield over them against melee classes. The mist/napalm serves these defensive groups as a marker. Something to rally around. Have your tanks hold the line over the mist to give everyone in the mist 45% dodge/disrupt. This shuts down range dps from reliably setting up burst cycles.

The pet. Lasting chaos Tactic/Extra ammo is a AP feed to everyone in the mist/napalm which is tied to the pet. Those tactics operate outside of your group. Meaning its not tied to your 6 man but to anyone close to your pet. If everyone is stacked in the mist and you have 2 magus/engineers with this tactic, your feeding everyone 40 ap every 2 sec's or 20 ap every sec. This allows for tanks that are close to your pets to permanently hold the line without having to swap in ap feed tactics to do so. This allows your healers to spam heal abilities that are not so ap efficient or straight heal more. This allows your magus/engineers to pump out more sustained damage. This allows other supporting mdps (slayers/marauders) to pump out sustained AoE damage over the mist/napalm indefinitely. Lasting chaos tactic/Extra ammo tactic is part of the defensive groups ap feeds. There are obviously more AP feeds you can add such as aura's to the group. These defensive groups generally have a ap abundance because its designed to outlast the opposition and constantly pump out sustained AE damage at a specific location.

3) I don't think the mechanic is clunky at all. I think the class was designed to be played in these defensive type groups. The class doesn't shine in a kiting meta. Players don't play these groups due to the reasons I listed in the previous post.

4) So I guess 12 man is considered a warband to you? You can run these defensive groups as a 6 man although not as effective. 6 man is just so limited and you can't make full use of hold the line at the 6 man level. It becomes very strong at the 12 man level though.

[Valfaros]

funfact: back in beta the devs intended magus to be able to cast while moving since they hover on a skateboard

Hmm and then later they forget that they had given magus hard casts all over the class. Magus can do quite good dmg as long as he is standing still which is really the only problem I have with him. + Banners or small laterns don't even try killing somebody near a banner you will get interupted every single time...

[peterthepan3]

ok then, the magus mechanic isn't clunky because you said so! and loads of other magi have been wrong all this time.

you fail to point out that the pet dies within 2/3 hits rendering the 20% dmg buff null in such a defensive setup.

however - you have made some good points regarding chokehold fighting. I would just love to see it in action, though!

[nibbles]

weren't magus originaly a mdps class. (and yes thats correct magi dps). it is a class that has to kite, its meant to be played correctly, (if you want to nuke roll a stationary sorc) if you want to disrupt, make order move out of position then magi is class to do that. in short ts not a pure rdps class but a class that has to be defended against differently and thats its biggest strength.

[peterthepan3]

weren't magus originaly a mdps class. (and yes thats correct magi dps). it is a class that has to kite, its meant to be played correctly, (if you want to nuke roll a stationary sorc) if you want to disrupt, make order move out of position then magi is class to do that. in short ts not a pure rdps class but a class that has to be defended against differently and thats its biggest strength.

uh, it's still renown on a disk for any MDPS class =P being a jack of all trades/incorporating melee and ranged mechanics doesn't translate well into the meta.

[Tankbeardz]

Static game? That simply doesn't work vs any good melee train. I love magus, don't get me wrong, but if you just stand around and expect to win vs any group with half a brain...you are going to lose. Mist and Napalm are fluff damage and are great for initializing procs for the other team - I mean killing pugs is great and all but...

As for your hold the line argument...tanks aren't just hold the line bots...they have so many other useful skills. Just my 2 cents..

[Jaycub]

Its not weak, its just not simple and easy.

Or rather it has its niches where it performs very well. The question I think is should every class have a strong/meta place in all scales of WAR, from 6v6 to 12v12(scenarios) to warband v warband, and keep siege type fighting.

Magus has no place in 6v6, a very niche one in 12v12 and that's debatable. But at keeps and large scale fighting magus is extremely powerful or perhaps it is because of the unorganization and thus lack of proper group compositions that the magus is able to take advantage of lack of mitigation and healing that it seems good. Because lets face it, the last thing you want to play against when you have no tanks or healers in your party is a magus.

[ToXoS]

Its not weak, its just not simple and easy.

Or rather it has its niches where it performs very well. The question I think is should every class have a strong/meta place in all scales of WAR, from 6v6 to 12v12(scenarios) to warband v warband, and keep siege type fighting.

Magus has no place in 6v6, a very niche one in 12v12 and that's debatable. But at keeps and large scale fighting magus is extremely powerful or perhaps it is because of the unorganization and thus lack of proper group compositions that the magus is able to take advantage of lack of mitigation and healing that it seems good. Because lets face it, the last thing you want to play against when you have no tanks or healers in your party is a magus.

If you have no tanks or healers in your party, you are screwed anyway. Magus or not.

[Jaycub]

that's kind of what i was getting at, magus is good in situations that are inherently bad for the other team anyways.