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[Tesq]

The way points are assigned it's better, renown also increased too and it's decent, but it is decent cos we are making more kill due to more time for completing the scenarios.
So rather than just increase the point gain also increase renown earned by the same % so that same results can be achived in a little less time. Also the increse must not be really so high like 5% at max

[georgehabadasher]

It's nice to refocus scenarios on objectives, but the real fun of WAR is killing people. The objectives are just there to give you a reason to kill people and a place for people to meet to kill each other. A kill should be worth the same whether you won or lost the scenario. If I manage to isolate and kill a premade's overextending slayer I should get full renown even if my team is getting smashed 500-0.

I think an easier solution is to incentivize taking objectives. Capping a flag can give 100 renown to everyone on it. Running the part can give 50-100 renown. Tweak the numbers however you like, but that should get people to actually focus on objectives.

[Azarael]

No, kills should not be worth the same on any of the objective based maps and they shouldn't be directly rewarded.

The problem is very simple. If you value kills in and of themselves (as opposed to kills which achieve the end of taking the objectives), you've killed any incentive to play the maps as objective-based. People played them as TDM and farmed the crap out of the enemy any chance they got, because that was the most efficient way to get rewards.

As of the recent change set:

- The winning team's score will tend to 500 over the last minute of the scenario. The losing team's score will be multiplied by a similar factor. For example, a scenario which is 250-125 at the 14th minute will finish 500-250. This is to ensure that parties are rewarded appropriately for hard fights over objectives that lead to no captures.

- The renown gained for winning a scenario is now related to the tier. It is (points scored * 0.5 * tier).

- Objective-based maps no longer provide any rewards directly related to killing other than scenario points. Objective maps instead reward the players as if they had killed every member of the enemy team twice, with the reward values multiplied by (teamPoints/500).

- Objective maps contain code to detect a farm / spawncamp situation. In this situation, the dominating team will receive 5 points per second and the losing team is rewarded with a weakened version of the Heroic Defender buff. If this effect occurs, players receive a message.

[Natherul]

No, kills should not be worth the same on any of the objective based maps and they shouldn't be directly rewarded.

The problem is very simple. If you value kills in and of themselves (as opposed to kills which achieve the end of taking the objectives), you've killed any incentive to play the maps as objective-based. People played them as TDM and farmed the crap out of the enemy any chance they got, because that was the most efficient way to get rewards.

As of the recent change set:

- The winning team's score will tend to 500 over the last minute of the scenario. The losing team's score will be multiplied by a similar factor. For example, a scenario which is 250-125 at the 14th minute will finish 500-250. This is to ensure that parties are rewarded appropriately for hard fights over objectives that lead to no captures.

- The renown gained for winning a scenario is now related to the tier. It is (points scored * 0.5 * tier).

- Objective-based maps no longer provide any rewards directly related to killing other than scenario points. Objective maps instead reward the players as if they had killed every member of the enemy team twice, with the reward values multiplied by (teamPoints/500).

- Objective maps contain code to detect a farm / spawncamp situation. In this situation, the dominating team will receive 5 points per second and the losing team is rewarded with a weakened version of the Heroic Defender buff. If this effect occurs, players receive a message.

awesome Aza, the latter mentioned buff needs some tweaking on forge however as I was spawncamped over and over last night and no buff But I guess thats already reported

[georgehabadasher]

The problem is very simple. If you value kills in and of themselves (as opposed to kills which achieve the end of taking the objectives), you've killed any incentive to play the maps as objective-based. People played them as TDM and farmed the crap out of the enemy any chance they got, because that was the most efficient way to get rewards.

This is where you lose me. You can value kills--not in and of themselves, but as contributing to completing objectives--without killing any incentive to complete those objectives. You don't have to create this byzantine system of rewards; all you have to do is directly incentivize completing objectives more than you incentivize killing. Give renown for capturing flags, running the part etc. Give out 10 renown/second for sitting on the flag in the Lost Temple of Isha.

For example let's say an average kill in a Black Fire Pass scenario is worth 100 renown (you probably have access to more accurate metrics than I do, tweak the numbers as necessary). If a player leaves the spawncamp to run the flag he loses renown for kills. You could delete renown for kills give a player running the part 500 renown. I'm pretty sure the spawn camp would collapse as people started camping the part to try to run it.

[Tesq]

What aza wrote is definetly better than give free renown.
Start give free renown and you will have to keep going with such system foreva....force ppl to play scenarios as they should be played is definetly better and make more senso to me.

Just a feeling aza but the multiplier feel exploitable, you can like focus on kill just ppl and recive at the end 500 pt cos you had auto multiplers; it kill the sense of these changes.

[Runebbb]

but this "farming" and not meeting the same players in sc's is not good for the lower tiers i enterd got a que pop instantly now i've waited hour+ on que pop for SC and its kinda a pain to lvl in t2-t3 if order is just zerging and ou cant get scenarios while order is zerging becouse if you are on of the few who are on at the time and seem to try to def the seige dosent give anything anymore so u just gotta drop deffending and then you dont get to play sc's so the time its dead for destro in lower tiers and u play for the pvp and orvr and want to be geard best possibly for higher tiers ou gotta play when its destro players on and thats not always lucrative either becouse if you cant play on those hours then you kinda gotta frind pve and there are alot better pve mmo's out there then this atm the queing should atleast work so you can get pop's i dont mind if i get farmed by order atleast i can get some xp and medalions while beeing farmed by around even teams and not beeing zergd 3-4 vs 30-40 orders in orvr that have been the case this morning and at that point its just to log off and do something else becouse i kinda dont get anything at all from orvr and sc's dont pop also i feel bad for the order who qued that got utterly stomped we ran we capped opbjectives we killd the orders they simply gave up so we won 500-0 and they get one match where they dont get **** praticly also this goes under the pepole who only goes for orvr and only goes under sc's im sure its fine in t4 where there are alot of pepole who wanna gear up but in lower tiers when its few pepole on its pointless to play when one side is low on players unless ur the zerg so the farming should atleast be allowed in lower tiers

[Azarael]

WALL

Not reading that unless you punctuate and capitalize correctly.

awesome Aza, the latter mentioned buff needs some tweaking on forge however as I was spawncamped over and over last night and no buff But I guess thats already reported

It was broken last night (as was the kill-estimation reward.) I had mistakenly removed tracking for kills made by a team.

The problem is very simple. If you value kills in and of themselves (as opposed to kills which achieve the end of taking the objectives), you've killed any incentive to play the maps as objective-based. People played them as TDM and farmed the crap out of the enemy any chance they got, because that was the most efficient way to get rewards.

This is where you lose me. You can value kills--not in and of themselves, but as contributing to completing objectives--without killing any incentive to complete those objectives. You don't have to create this byzantine system of rewards; all you have to do is directly incentivize completing objectives more than you incentivize killing. Give renown for capturing flags, running the part etc. Give out 10 renown/second for sitting on the flag in the Lost Temple of Isha.

For example let's say an average kill in a Black Fire Pass scenario is worth 100 renown (you probably have access to more accurate metrics than I do, tweak the numbers as necessary). If a player leaves the spawncamp to run the flag he loses renown for kills. You could delete renown for kills give a player running the part 500 renown. I'm pretty sure the spawn camp would collapse as people started camping the part to try to run it.

What you're missing is simple. If you reward completion of the objective but still reward kills, what happens in a situation of imbalance is this:

- Farm for 12 minutes
- Complete the objectives in the last 3. Now you'd even get bonus renown for doing that.

This is why you cannot reward kills, full stop. On an objective-based map, completing the objectives represents the only reward, and killing is how you accomplish that (because you're fighting the other realm for control of the objective). I tried a few iterations in which kill rewards were kept and the maps were played entirely around them - the spawncamp problem became even worse than it was before. Now the rewards are tied to the objective, so if you have control of the map, it's pointless to spawncamp, and the payout is better for simply doing the objective.

Also, Domination, Artifact and Tug of War maps have the old system of kill rewards because they are fine as they are.

[Nekkma]

Personally I don't really see the problem that these changes are trying to fix. To me it seems that in most "spawncamp" type of situations someone starts running the part. With that said, if these changes lead to less spawn camping I guess it is all good.

Anyway, if you like killing there is nothing stoping you from continuing to do just that so I don't really see the issue here either. For me scenarios and rvr has always been about killing first and objectives second and I will continue to play the way I enjoy regardless of changes in rewards.

Under the assumption that the development here is focused on the end product I think it is good to note that I played at level cap (80 and 100) longer than I did leveling. Rewards, in the form of renown and emblems, will be obsolete on mains rather fast.

[Dresden]

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