[Rejected] Proc meta

[Bozzax]

If you all decide it is good thing to “limit” procs I’d say these three mechanics could be used or a combination of them

• Outgoing CDs
Maintain a proc matrix on the attacker and limit the number of procs per second.

Pros: Simple and straightforward

Cons: A bit unfair classes/archetypes/realms. Classes with many attacks will still get better average proc output. Weapon speed, Channel tic-speed and availability of haste tactics affects average proc damage significantly (uneven between classes, archetypes and realms)

• Incoming CDs
Maintain a proc matrix on the defender and limit the number of procs per second. (A variant of this would be to make procs short DOTs that possibly stack)

Pros: Could be used to help outnumbered forces as incoming proc damage can be hard capped

Cons: A bit unfair classes/archetypes/realms. Classes with excessive number of attacks per second will still have a higher proc output then others of same archetype. Weapon speed, Channel tic-speed and availability of haste tactics affects average proc damage significantly

• Normalise outgoing proc damage
Only proc from AA, DD buildup and channel DD abilities. Get rid of all special special stuff that procs such as items, ID, DE, offhand etc. Normalise damage of channels, build-up abilities and AA procs. Example if a Channel attack hits every 0.8s procs damage is scaled 0,8/1,5. (The interesting discussion is if a 3s FB or a slow 2h:er should be scaled the same way 3.0/1.5 :/ )

Pros: More fair since it makes classes within the same archetype proc same average damage. Also evens out the proc damage performance of 2h/DW and even btw archetypes.

Cons: More complex and a bigger change and the whine from the classes that are brought in line will be real.

Off these three I think Outgoing CDs is the least desirable

[Bozzax]

Combining incoming CDs and outgoing normalisation is my preferred solution as it potentially offers

- Realm balance
- Class balance
- Archetype balance
- Smooths out differences btw dual wield and 2h procs
- Can "rate" incoming proc damage for a smaller force vs a larger force or AOE WB vs WB spam

[Aranael]

guys, keep the things easy. the solution to fix this is rather simple and don't need a complex matrix with pros and cons.

let's sum up the current situation:

- procs are obviously off; they offer way too much damage especially when combined with certain tactics.
- we don't know if the problem will fix itself with new gear. Yet we also don't know when we get new gear.
- what we know is that on live procs were never such a problem and that the premade fights are rather not enjoyable if one side starts to "abuse" this mechanic excessive.

If you try to find reasons why we shouldn't nerf procs, the first thing which comes to your mind is that such a group requires a mage. This will indeed result in a weak link and a damage loss if you compare the group setups with the naked eye.

First of all: Bright Wizards do more damage (no TB), period. Their mechanic allows them to go full defensive, even slot armor and still manage to crit for reasonable numbers.
The second and more important thing is: Procs do not scale with intelligence. That's another pro for the bright wizard as he offers a huge damage buff for the whole group while he is still able to deal reasonable damage by himself.

If you now compare that group to a full melee comp, the sustain damage loss from the missing second mdps will be covered by the additional damage from tanks and one mdps.
The "weak link" will be as tanky as a mdps, thanks to defensive gear and won't die as quick as intended.

So in fact you are not giving up too much. Don't get me wrong i still think if both teams are equally skilled, the one with 2 mdps will win, simply because a pressured Bright Wizard can't deal much damage.

That's it for order side.

On destru this becomes much more fun as you don't even need a sorc to go full ret*rd.

I'm sure nobody ran that setup but imagine a triple dok / marauder / bo / chosen setup with 3 doks having Devour Essence. Both doks will slot potent covenants, with one speccing for bloodthirst as well. The missing heal will be easily covered by the mdok and the triple drop of DE will lead into a guaranteed kill. They will not only be immortal but also instant kill anyone during a well timed CC.
Ofc you are missing Frozen Touch + Frozen Fury but hands down, mdok + mrd do have way more synergy than mdok+sorc / mrd+sorc.

The solution to fix this is to add a 1.5s ICD to Prayers / Covenants and Buffs such as FT / FoR. No matrix or anything else is needed. The buffs will still be relevant but don't be out of control. The bright wizard will be forced to go more offensive if he wants to compete and the devour essence drop will be negated as well. plain and simple.

Additional: I hope that all tactics are already fixed and do not proc any procs as they were never able to do so on live.

Also, in a later stage of the game- i'm speaking about gear / average RR -, you could think about removing the ICD again and see how it works out. Maybe the problem fixed itself and is just of temporary nature. Not much effort of programming and the competing people are happy.

[Tesq]

I belive it could also take the chance to look at how other games solve this is issue, if the answer is probably icd then i like both the

Boxx proposal and also toldav one.


-An external cd would make dd able to switch target with out lower their damages this way procs utility will be only bring into line and not nerfed as with an internal cd

-Then a standardlisation for things that can proc stuff and nerf of second hand proc chance to make it equals with 2h (this is something i also refered long ago due dual weild being better than 2h in proc builds)

-This also solve the aoe problem since the CD is on the reciving player.

-regarding the duration i think that anything above 2 sec would be just overkilling and less that 1 sec worthless due the fact the the global CD is 0.5 it need to be min 0.6- 1 sec to prevent every skill to proc it.
In the case of wait for ap to regen a bit and hit it can be then increased to 1 full sec.
So the cd should be between 0.6-2 sec where 1 sec would probably be the best option. It's also a question of server latency these changes will put a lot of stress on server performance with aoe so any cd lower that 1 sec could be too much to handle.

[Bozzax]

guys, keep the things easy. the solution to fix this is rather simple and don't need a complex matrix with pros and cons.

let's sum up the current situation:

- procs are obviously off; they offer way too much damage especially when combined with certain tactics.
- we don't know if the problem will fix itself with new gear. Yet we also don't know when we get new gear.
- what we know is that on live procs were never such a problem and that the premade fights are rather not enjoyable if one side starts to "abuse" this mechanic excessive.

Most already soft cap resists or have lets say ~30% or so new gear won't matter much (cap 40%). We also know physical armor will go up making "procs value" increase. So no it won't fix itself.

Pandoras box is open and "there is no way to put the snakes back into the jar". All will use this eventually regardless of how live was.

Oh and ICDs on passives = Outgoing CD (matrix)
That leaves several issues untouched such as Slayers having x2 or more procs then a WE/WL or any DW being > 2h with regard to procs. AOE getting significantly stronger then it "should" be by procs? Or is that exactly how it should be?

[Ktana]

Spoiler:

Taken from the main thread what the discussion started:

From having played quite extensively with procbuilds( i am talking now about bw/sorc procs):

I tried to find out how it worked on live , and it was very difficult finding an appropriate video of a mdps using the proc with proper ui visibility of its applications. The closest i found was this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJgheowSiE ( go to 2:19-2:20 and slow it down) - from this the icd(if it existed which i doubt) was lower then 1s- the sorc most likely didn't run the proc tactic in that video as it was hard to ever see it proc again in a consistent fashion. I would love it if someone has proper videos with visibility of how it worked.

Also i tried to find any patch notes referencing icd , but appart from damage increase/decrease and other mechanics no mentioning of ICD (still doesn't mean there was none)

It has balance implications tho (specifically related to the gear-state of the game and the non-scaling nature of procs) , and is quite powerful atm. , in a similar fashion that bs/st are . It does not make for very interactive gameplay but is different to normal meta and not undefeatable , depending on what kind of setup you are running.


Edit : As a matter of fact, i have just noticed that how in that video that i linked it proced off of a dot 2:52-2:53 (Yer all bleeding now) - which makes me even more curious how it actually worked...

And,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG8frNMjpcw
wrong. even though the video has some quality issues you can clearly see that the attack was applied at 16:27:23

the timestamp of the attack looks exactly like the one of torment:


a more zoomed in version shows that the first hit is applied in s 23:


last but not least the WSCT behavior:


despite the fact that the combat text is not a 100% trustworthy and accurate, this is a behavior which only occurs if you are able to proc multiple procs in the same second. there is no 1s delay in WSCT.

no matter how hard you try to get an ICD for procs - which might be justified - it is still not a bug. i have no doubt that this adds a bit too much damage into the current stage of the game but it is something equal to the initiative debuff in T2 which fixed itself with the progress of the game (level / gear). i doubt that procs will stay that strong during the next gear updates of RoR. hence it might be justified to add a temporary ICD of 1 second to FoR and Covenants. in the long run though, i think it should get removed again as this setup forces your group to play with a bright wizard / sorc. having a range dps weakens your setup a lot compared to a full melee train. if a melee group is not able to kill a cc'd rdps, they obviously lack damage due to gear/player skill/whatsoever.

Perhaps not super "hard" evidence, but some evidence

Actually, at this moment there is no evidence at all about no ICDs on procs on live.

If you look closely at the 2nd video you can see that

[16:27:22]Attack
[16:27:22]FoR
[16:27:23]Torment
[16:27:23]FoR

Otherwise 21st second is followed by 23rd and there is no 22 second. Thats for sure. If you want you can set up external timer or something.

WSCT (on both videos) is no evidence at all because of no timestamp.

[Danielle]

Spoiler:

Taken from the main thread what the discussion started:

From having played quite extensively with procbuilds( i am talking now about bw/sorc procs):

I tried to find out how it worked on live , and it was very difficult finding an appropriate video of a mdps using the proc with proper ui visibility of its applications. The closest i found was this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJgheowSiE ( go to 2:19-2:20 and slow it down) - from this the icd(if it existed which i doubt) was lower then 1s- the sorc most likely didn't run the proc tactic in that video as it was hard to ever see it proc again in a consistent fashion. I would love it if someone has proper videos with visibility of how it worked.

Also i tried to find any patch notes referencing icd , but appart from damage increase/decrease and other mechanics no mentioning of ICD (still doesn't mean there was none)

It has balance implications tho (specifically related to the gear-state of the game and the non-scaling nature of procs) , and is quite powerful atm. , in a similar fashion that bs/st are . It does not make for very interactive gameplay but is different to normal meta and not undefeatable , depending on what kind of setup you are running.


Edit : As a matter of fact, i have just noticed that how in that video that i linked it proced off of a dot 2:52-2:53 (Yer all bleeding now) - which makes me even more curious how it actually worked...

And,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG8frNMjpcw
wrong. even though the video has some quality issues you can clearly see that the attack was applied at 16:27:23

the timestamp of the attack looks exactly like the one of torment:


a more zoomed in version shows that the first hit is applied in s 23:


last but not least the WSCT behavior:


despite the fact that the combat text is not a 100% trustworthy and accurate, this is a behavior which only occurs if you are able to proc multiple procs in the same second. there is no 1s delay in WSCT.

no matter how hard you try to get an ICD for procs - which might be justified - it is still not a bug. i have no doubt that this adds a bit too much damage into the current stage of the game but it is something equal to the initiative debuff in T2 which fixed itself with the progress of the game (level / gear). i doubt that procs will stay that strong during the next gear updates of RoR. hence it might be justified to add a temporary ICD of 1 second to FoR and Covenants. in the long run though, i think it should get removed again as this setup forces your group to play with a bright wizard / sorc. having a range dps weakens your setup a lot compared to a full melee train. if a melee group is not able to kill a cc'd rdps, they obviously lack damage due to gear/player skill/whatsoever.

Perhaps not super "hard" evidence, but some evidence

Actually, at this moment there is no evidence at all about no ICDs on procs on live.

If you look closely at the 2nd video you can see that

[16:27:22]Attack
[16:27:22]FoR
[16:27:23]Torment
[16:27:23]FoR

Otherwise 21st second is followed by 23rd and there is no 22 second. Thats for sure. If you want you can set up external timer or something.

WSCT (on both videos) is no evidence at all because of no timestamp.

Except if you actually bothered to watch the video linked as evidence, at the suggested time 2:19-2:20, you would see FT proc twice in a single GCD and 1 second. Youtube videos have timestamps. If that still isn't enough for you, there's a second video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG8frNMjpcw&t=3m29s where you can even see the combat log showing there was no ICD.

[navis]

From what I remember from Live, BW Fueled from Within tactic (increased damage) didn't effect party members because of it's use paired with CoF.
Those tactic's weren't considered very powerful (no int % contribution) (elemental resist being high in general further reducing the dmg). That said the desire for the combination is a plus for the class and should be allowed to be used because of the cost of two tactics being used.

I like the thought of incoming CD, as well most normalization seems pretty good right now. They used to be issue with proc's on dot ticks which was fixed.. If any normalization needs done then fix that as well. I will think something like that quite reasonable.

[dur3al]

I also like the idea of an internal cool-down, its what is making more sense to me at this point, but I'm just gonna trow this idea here to see what everybody thinks, or if its even viable:

What if procs damage would scale with str/intelligence? Or if you do a big hit, you get the full amount of the proc damage, if you hit for 1, you get barely anything etc.

[Smellybelly]

I also like the idea of an internal cool-down, its what is making more sense to me at this point, but I'm just gonna trow this idea here to see what everybody thinks, or if its even viable:

What if procs damage would scale with str/intelligence? Or if you do a big hit, you get the full amount of the proc damage, if you hit for 1, you get barely anything etc.

Not a bad idea tbh. It would limit how much damage a defensive tank could dish out to be more in line with what he/she "should" push.