Recent Topics

Ads

[Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

After feedback has reached it's viable limit, it will retire here to keep the main section clean and tidy.
User avatar
GodlessCrom
Suspended
Posts: 1297

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#81 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:24 pm

Spoiler:
BrockRiefenstahl wrote:
The core point was, if all play with what they enjoy at the moment, it would be a nicer place with more diversity.
#nohomo Love :)
Not necessarily. If people really enjoy playing OP classes at the moment, the game wouldn't be more diverse, it would be more lop-sided. And in my experience, playing a fair amount of MMOs for like...the majority of my life at this point (feelsbadman), people really like playing FoTM/OP ****.

And while WAR isn't the most competitive game out there, I'd still like to see the feedback based on what high skill players can do, rather than what the "average" can do. If only because the high skill players are the ones most likely to uncover the OP combos and etc., and therefore the ones whom are most likely going to be driving the meta/balance in the first place.
Off-topic
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

Ads
User avatar
wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 8387
Contact:

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#82 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:53 pm

This is a balance forum post. Read the rules.

Stick to the topic or warnings will start dropping. This is not about pug/pre, noob/elite, or current meta. Post your thoughts on how YOU would balance DoK/WP around OP's guidelines.

Azarael wrote: I'm opening this topic under the idea that a future version of these classes will work around three modes/specs, with lockout times:

- Casted healing
- Melee/casted healing
- Damage

This being mainly for the sake of protecting the second mode, which is the conceptual one and how they should play. I freely admit that my ideal solution would be that 2 is the viable heal mode in small scale and 1 is the viable heal mode in large scale.

So, I want to see explanations, detailed ones, of the following:

1) Why cast heal WP/DoK are mandatory, in both small and large scale.
2) How that mandatory status is to be broken.
3) How their skillcap can be raised. My view is that this can be done in small scale by linking the melee healing to the casted healing, as at present, adding Divine Strike / Consume Essence and increasing the AP cost of Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence. If you have an alternative suggestion to increase the skill requirement given what the class has, feel free to venture it.
Image
[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

Culdu
Posts: 70

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#83 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:06 pm

Soo finally after some days of trying and thinking ;-) Sorry for the long post, just read the topic you are interested in;-)

I think the three possible playstyles :

Backline Healer
Melee/Cast Healer (with being able to tend more to one or the other)
Damage (with possibility to heal burst,after all it's not a pure DD)

is the way to go.

Backline Healer
As I experience ex modus and like I understood devs, this modus is intended to only be a possibility for main "melee" healers to not be completly useless in zergfights;-). I don't think that this should be done, easily, because it is a possibility to play the char. The idea behind the changes are at all not to decrease the number of possible grp setups but to increase them.
Oldschool heal WP/DoK was too stong, i absolutly agree with that. While being able to heal a lot it was massive like a tank, healing even better when hittet, without really needing support from his grp.
All the other pros are in my experience from 6vs6 / scenarios compareable to pros of the other healers.
By removing half of his armor, which especially effects these (all) who used (only) armor talis, and removing perma ae detaunt you started the evolution to a real backline healer. To degrade that modus to a makeshift for melee healers in zerg would reduce the possibilities in gameplay and setups. So I think the backline modus should be reworked a bit to be a competitive (not op or mandatory) modus to play.
Which breaks it at the moment is that everything is designed to stay in the middle of the fight, not in the backline. A quick testsolution would be :
- increase soul/ fury reg a bit (10-12 need to be tested)
- add another ap heal (divine aid & restore essence perhaps)
- ae heal khaines refreshment/martyrs blessing around def target instead of around yourself
- perhaps add ae detaunt with longer cooldown, like every healer has (switching on vitality/devotion first is one global cooldown more and combined with a lockout)

This would only be kind of a work around. Finally I think they should have their own mannerism also in this form. Thougt about sth like having grp& ae heal abilities with action points and only "average" amount, and using soul essence/fury for really good single target burst heals like mend/invigoration and a short each sec ticking hot with high amount. Or adding sth else to offer more possibilites for playstyle and grps.


Melee/Cast Healer Vitality
I tested it a lot now with two different tactic setups and playstyles in random grp and premade
Tactics Setups

1.) more casts ( http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=dok ... 6:;0:0:0:0: )
Used tactics willpower, potent convenants, empowered transfer and transfered focus

2.) lifedrain (same skills or change to ( http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=dok ... 6:;0:0:0:0: )
using all damage tactics.

Playstyles
a.)Staying a bit behind our front , hitting tanks or anything who came to our camp

b.)Was sticking up to other meele dds hitting their targets mostly in their backline


Results:
- As long as you don't care about second grp, just using 2.) with nearly only transfer essence has the best output, even when you nearly only hit tanks/heavy armor targets -> would recommend to reintroduce base ammount (higher than befor ~ 500 perhaps) and additional % off the dmg to have only average heal on heavy targets but really nice heal on weak targets not nice all the time.

- 1.) is a lot of fun to play, some hectic but also really healing up the second grp is a new aera to melee heal ;-) -> would only recommend to put transfered focus to a 20% outgoing healbuff for yourself(or exalted defenses but no need to mirror everything), to make that playstyle more competitive for the additional klicking & switching

- when falling back in b.) especially with 1.) the 12 seconds on the buff are a bit too short sometimes -> would recommend 15s .

- timer on detaunt is ok, -> but would finally prefer a 50% dmg debuff instead of ae detaunt(devour essence / either the meeles or the ranger).

- b.) should be your job when possible, even when your damage is weak it is in this case not wasted. Perhaps damage of non healing abilities should/could be increased to dunno 75% to make it more interesting to look for the main target when incoming damage is not too high, to switch back on healing when needed. But perhaps that would be too much again. Also base amount instead of mitigation ignore would make it more interesting to assist on a potentially debuffed target instead of just hitting anyhting.

- Devour essence has to be either opted from the 50% dmg or increased to 100% heal. It is/was the ideal ability to use when approaching a fight to heal up the target until you get to melee range. Amount now is useless especially taking into account that it costs 125 soul essence.

- I'm not really sure if I would recommend your plan to introduce consume essence again. On the one hand i played with it on live and switched def targets to heal the different "areas" of the field(transfer essence was too bad in that time to use it at all), but it would also allow you to heal your add grp without anything else to target. Guess that would be another point to easily only target yourself instead of 1.) and still performing ok ---transfer essence allready has a relativly high ap need don't think it would be usefull to increase that, better reduce healing amount on heavy targets. Has some pros and cons to introduce it again we can test it ;)


i think 1.) and 2.) should work, without reskill, due to adjusting it to enemies (more range more melees) in bgs
b.) should be the aim for the melee healer but not be mandatory a.) should be possible but, as long as hitting tanks, with reduced healoutput

Damage
Is overall working good i think would perhaps need some more runs with full grps for tries



Some balance issues due to the hard work to give the wp all the juicies of the dok:
WP doesn't need a tactic slot for healreduce, thus having a free tactic slot compared to dok.(Don't think a long discussion about critluck and spamabalitiy is usefull now) DoKs is probably a bit better when not having bad critluck(debuff).

WP has ini debuff instead of toughness -> instead of ~20 dps more on target you get 5-15% critchance(depends on target base ini). In full grp, even without aura you have 2-3 thoughness debuffs making it quite useless, while ini debuff is really rare and very usefull. Would recommend to give dok also ini (or another destro melee class while little weaking for wp)

WP has the only lifebuff in the game, if someone starts again now with "it can be shattered" have a look on the "proc meta" and see how people react to shatterable buffs. Especially when starting to burst a new target it can really make a difference. Would recommend to give it also to a destro class, which needed some love to a tree.


Greetings Starilas

User avatar
Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#84 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:30 pm

Haven't played a DoK in a while, but here's some ideas:

-increase AP cost of Blood Offering, after all, blood is expensive
-increase cooldown of it by several seconds
-increase AP cost of the insta heal (Khaines Invigoration?) by 10-20 points, weaken it ~10%
-if possible, slash the characters willpower accumulation over natural leveling by ~10% (you get some stats for levelling up, decrease the natural willpower gain?)
-increase cost of AoE detaunt severely 5-20 points (uses AP?)
-increased cooldown on that AoE ability which upon hitting targets gives back some Soul Essnce, a few seconds?
-slightly increase cast cost for the Cleanse ability 5-10 points (whichever pool it uses, cannot remember)
-5 to 10 feet lower range for group heals, the raw heal and the group HoT

this is from my ancient memory, haven't played a T4 DoK since Dec 2013, but I remember being pretty damn OP back then with my rr100 DoK.
then again, even back then good DoKs made the class seem very OP, but there always a lot of mediocre DoKs around, and they kept dying; healing is more about being a good healer with high situation awareness, not just raw healing power. (though a good healer playing a DoK/WP was pretty damn hard to kill)

then again, if you just nerfed DoK/WP, maybe consider balancing healers from the other ends, improve the 4 others less, instead of just hammering DoK/WP too much.

User avatar
BrockRiefenstahl
Posts: 409

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#85 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:19 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:Haven't played a DoK in a while, but here's some ideas:
Spoiler:
-increase AP cost of Blood Offering, after all, blood is expensive
-increase cooldown of it by several seconds
-increase AP cost of the insta heal (Khaines Invigoration?) by 10-20 points, weaken it ~10%
-if possible, slash the characters willpower accumulation over natural leveling by ~10% (you get some stats for levelling up, decrease the natural willpower gain?)
-increase cost of AoE detaunt severely 5-20 points (uses AP?)
-increased cooldown on that AoE ability which upon hitting targets gives back some Soul Essnce, a few seconds?
-slightly increase cast cost for the Cleanse ability 5-10 points (whichever pool it uses, cannot remember)
-5 to 10 feet lower range for group heals, the raw heal and the group HoT

this is from my ancient memory, haven't played a T4 DoK since Dec 2013, but I remember being pretty damn OP back then with my rr100 DoK.
then again, even back then good DoKs made the class seem very OP, but there always a lot of mediocre DoKs around, and they kept dying; healing is more about being a good healer with high situation awareness, not just raw healing power. (though a good healer playing a DoK/WP was pretty damn hard to kill)
then again, if you just nerfed DoK/WP, maybe consider balancing healers from the other ends, improve the 4 others less, instead of just hammering DoK/WP too much.
So you write you didn't play WP/DoK since a while. You also mention, that you don't want them to be nerfed hard.
At the same time, your whole post is bout nerfing the Class, as a whole in all builds :o .
What the hell? You know this also effects the Melee DPS builds and Melee Heals?
Plase play the experimental mode, before posting such things. Not want to say you have no clue, but this seems a bit off, to fit on actual situations.

User avatar
Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#86 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:38 am

BrockRiefenstahl wrote:
Aurandilaz wrote:Haven't played a DoK in a while, but here's some ideas:
Spoiler:
-increase AP cost of Blood Offering, after all, blood is expensive
-increase cooldown of it by several seconds
-increase AP cost of the insta heal (Khaines Invigoration?) by 10-20 points, weaken it ~10%
-if possible, slash the characters willpower accumulation over natural leveling by ~10% (you get some stats for levelling up, decrease the natural willpower gain?)
-increase cost of AoE detaunt severely 5-20 points (uses AP?)
-increased cooldown on that AoE ability which upon hitting targets gives back some Soul Essnce, a few seconds?
-slightly increase cast cost for the Cleanse ability 5-10 points (whichever pool it uses, cannot remember)
-5 to 10 feet lower range for group heals, the raw heal and the group HoT

this is from my ancient memory, haven't played a T4 DoK since Dec 2013, but I remember being pretty damn OP back then with my rr100 DoK.
then again, even back then good DoKs made the class seem very OP, but there always a lot of mediocre DoKs around, and they kept dying; healing is more about being a good healer with high situation awareness, not just raw healing power. (though a good healer playing a DoK/WP was pretty damn hard to kill)
then again, if you just nerfed DoK/WP, maybe consider balancing healers from the other ends, improve the 4 others less, instead of just hammering DoK/WP too much.
So you write you didn't play WP/DoK since a while. You also mention, that you don't want them to be nerfed hard.
At the same time, your whole post is bout nerfing the Class, as a whole in all builds :o .
What the hell? You know this also effects the Melee DPS builds and Melee Heals?
Plase play the experimental mode, before posting such things. Not want to say you have no clue, but this seems a bit off, to fit on actual situations.
Yes, I just recently returned, but I do have my memories of playing t4 DoK for years and I was pretty damn OP, I also played a shaman, allowing me to realize just how big the gap between those two was. Now it seems there has been a slight "nerf" to DoK/WP cleanse, which in itself didn't really damage much of the class or lower the demand for it. Meaning they are still pretty damn useful and strong.

If the healing side loses small benefits, it would not be the end of every DPS DoK, who still benefit quite lot from their dualwield compared to WPs.

If DoK/WP get to keep their still quite good cleanse, have it at least cost a bit more. Currently it is damn cheap.
Furthermore, all my ideas were about a few second increases there and there, and some extra cost there and there; hardly to kill an entire class, but surely making it even slightly harder to play compared to the classic button smashing in the backlines.

Especially about the healing distances, if the devs here truly intend to push DoK/WP closer to the front, have their ranges suffer slightly as a result, but allow the other healers maybe that +10 feet range that DoK/WP forfeits.

The class pair is strong, and you cannot nerf it without a bunch of comments crying about their DPS side suffering on the side too.

User avatar
BrockRiefenstahl
Posts: 409

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#87 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:55 am

Spoiler:
Aurandilaz wrote:
BrockRiefenstahl wrote:
Aurandilaz wrote:Haven't played a DoK in a while, but here's some ideas:

-increase AP cost of Blood Offering, after all, blood is expensive
-increase cooldown of it by several seconds
-increase AP cost of the insta heal (Khaines Invigoration?) by 10-20 points, weaken it ~10%
-if possible, slash the characters willpower accumulation over natural leveling by ~10% (you get some stats for levelling up, decrease the natural willpower gain?)
-increase cost of AoE detaunt severely 5-20 points (uses AP?)
-increased cooldown on that AoE ability which upon hitting targets gives back some Soul Essnce, a few seconds?
-slightly increase cast cost for the Cleanse ability 5-10 points (whichever pool it uses, cannot remember)
-5 to 10 feet lower range for group heals, the raw heal and the group HoT

this is from my ancient memory, haven't played a T4 DoK since Dec 2013, but I remember being pretty damn OP back then with my rr100 DoK.
then again, even back then good DoKs made the class seem very OP, but there always a lot of mediocre DoKs around, and they kept dying; healing is more about being a good healer with high situation awareness, not just raw healing power. (though a good healer playing a DoK/WP was pretty damn hard to kill)
then again, if you just nerfed DoK/WP, maybe consider balancing healers from the other ends, improve the 4 others less, instead of just hammering DoK/WP too much.
So you write you didn't play WP/DoK since a while. You also mention, that you don't want them to be nerfed hard.
At the same time, your whole post is bout nerfing the Class, as a whole in all builds :o .
What the hell? You know this also effects the Melee DPS builds and Melee Heals?
Plase play the experimental mode, before posting such things. Not want to say you have no clue, but this seems a bit off, to fit on actual situations.
Yes, I just recently returned, but I do have my memories of playing t4 DoK for years and I was pretty damn OP, I also played a shaman, allowing me to realize just how big the gap between those two was. Now it seems there has been a slight "nerf" to DoK/WP cleanse, which in itself didn't really damage much of the class or lower the demand for it. Meaning they are still pretty damn useful and strong.

If the healing side loses small benefits, it would not be the end of every DPS DoK, who still benefit quite lot from their dualwield compared to WPs.

If DoK/WP get to keep their still quite good cleanse, have it at least cost a bit more. Currently it is damn cheap.
Furthermore, all my ideas were about a few second increases there and there, and some extra cost there and there; hardly to kill an entire class, but surely making it even slightly harder to play compared to the classic button smashing in the backlines.

Especially about the healing distances, if the devs here truly intend to push DoK/WP closer to the front, have their ranges suffer slightly as a result, but allow the other healers maybe that +10 feet range that DoK/WP forfeits.

The class pair is strong, and you cannot nerf it without a bunch of comments crying about their DPS side suffering on the side too.
Have you even read the changes? They are already live since days and if you would know what the class status is, you would not write this things... Its pretty sure that those changes will stay (maybe with slight adjusting).

sotora
Posts: 320

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#88 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:57 am

@Aurandilaz

Before you comment please play RoR. RoR has already many changes in game mechanics vs live Warhammer.

Additionally RR cap is 80, and most T4 players are around RR 30-45 and those going over 55 are not many.

So please don't comment from point of view of a RR 100 player on Warhammer official servers. Current situation here is simply diffrent.

Ads
Nebuuh
Posts: 35

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#89 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:45 am

Should or can we still bring up any ideas/improvements regarding wp/dok to this thread, or is the balancing already done? Id like to add some thoughts to the "back line healing" part of those classes, but if Aza doenst want to change (buff,nerf) that playstyle, then there is no reason to post anything anyway.

User avatar
BrockRiefenstahl
Posts: 409

Re: Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#90 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:36 am

Nebuuh wrote:Should or can we still bring up any ideas/improvements regarding wp/dok to this thread, or is the balancing already done? Id like to add some thoughts to the "back line healing" part of those classes, but if Aza doenst want to change (buff,nerf) that playstyle, then there is no reason to post anything anyway.
It is not finally done, otherwise Devs would turn off the experimental mode (ingame). KR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest