[Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

[roadkillrobin]

There is no problem with armor other then pot not stacking with buffs wich invalidates to many abillities. The problem is with Toughness and Initive not matching the effect of it when stacked in the same manner. And that is due to those stats being Inferiour and not Armor being over the top.
The problem is and has always been. Crit able to stack way more crit ten crit reduction can reduce it due to hardcap at 0% to be crit. Any number lower then that only effrctive against Crit debuffs.

[th3gatekeeper]

Spoiler:

Actually, the circumstances I was showing INVOLVED armor debuffs.

The fact that it "seems necessary to survive" is the problem. Armor should not be the "go to stat" for survival as it seems to be now...

If MDPS stack armor pen over 50% they are giving up something else. Either they are losing strength (towards the softcap) or they have no defensive stats (like armor). So this creates a tradeoff between "tanky vs damage".

Point being, I think it a much more fair calculation. Logically as well, if I possess the skill to bypass 30% of a plate users armor, but can only bypass 30% of cloth armor as well, it makes no sense.

I do agree though. Merely buffing weapon skill (as I proposed) ALONE, might not be a good move... You would need to look at increasing some other stat values at the same time to compensate (like toughness)

Yes armor debuffs. But classes like WH/WE or Marauder have percentage based armor ignoring skills/tactics. You did not consider these. As an example armor stacking against a WE/Marauder melee train would probably not be very useful.

When the most potent damage dealers for SC/6on6 are all physical ones than stacking armor seems like the correct approach if you participate in it. I dont see any issue with it being the go to stat. Aside from the obvious balance issue that magical damage apparently is negligible in these cases.

Up to 45% they aren't really giving anything up (maybe a tactic slot for wild gambit/instinctive aim). And thats my SW with crap gear. In BIS you might already have 50% without any significant tradeoffs.

Sorry, mate but logic hasn't played a role in MMOs for long time

If you want to increase the value of a defensive stat look at Initiative. I'm actually suprised the devs didn't change it when they had their run at crit stacking.

And just how many Mara/WE meleetrains are out there? I haven't myself seen many of those.
WE/Wh get their 1 min CD buff that allows 50% armor ignorance for what, 7 seconds? Ofc there is the classic AW/torment spam, which is a result of every other ability being inferior due to the armour bypass that those two have. (another "too good not to use" career ability)
Marauders meanwhile are disgustingly OP with their armour ignore tactics and armour debuff. (same with WLs to some similar extent)

Touching the current armour "balance" would either lead to some classes dying insane fast, and if going the other direction, some classes would just not die.

Which is perhaps why the current armour situation should just be "swept under the mat", and focus directed on stats like Initiative and Toughness, and changing them to become proper ALTERNATIVES to armour stacking.
The WS/Str dynamic is again something that is too messy. Most classes have ways to bypass the need for WS stacking, which is about why most classes just focus on getting Str up to the cap.

tldr: it's getting way too complicated, armour is what it is, and about the only thing keeping most classes alive when focused

This exactly. WE cant really benefit from a melee train as much as other classes - they really arent build for it...

Mara's do have Piercing Bite. Which gives them a free 50% "arp". So there is 1 class that realistically ignores armor... However at the end of the day, I dont ever see Mara's being "top DPS" in SCs... Probably because its all ST damage. I dont disagree that Mara's could use a small nerf, but no more than WLs need it as well... So you have it on both sides...

I dont think "some classes would just not die" in fact touching the "armor balance" VIA Armor Pen... Wouldnt drastically impact tanks at all, nor medium armor classes who stack armor talis THAT much - since they are already getting 80%+ armor values...

Really what I am advocating for, when its additive, is your "arp" is acting like "arp against a 100% armor target" regardless of your actual armor. So the closer you get to 100%, the less and less it impacts you. No classes really get a "buff" from this at all.. It would be the classes that are lower (i.e. light armor classes) that will get hit the most.

If all you do is increase stats like toughness/initiative this WILL lead to classes "just not dying" is the problem... because armor isnt really "exclusive"... its not like there are tons of crazy set bonuses that people have to give up for more armor. You have your base armor + pot + Talis... So the reality is... Were talking about ~130 stat points of "stats" to opt for armor.

So tweaking of other stats - will only increase tankiness - which in some cases is already too high IMO.

I would be 100% onboard with adding a trivial blows function into initiative. This would be a GREAT way to "fine tune" crit. But if ALL you did was this, then the "kill rate" in smaller scale PVP would drop SO fast... It would become much less fun unless you adjust armor (as I have proposed).

Im not sure the best way to introduce a trivial blows function into Initiative though... I guess you would have to just build it in as a stat - "take X% less damage from crits" AND "your chance to be crit is X%".

But this would be a fair "give and take" as it would alleviate burst damage quite a bit, but also make classes more susceptible to phys damage (which again makes up easily more than half the damage in the game) - cause you have to think, things like AA(which account for a good chunk of damage) dont get all these "armor bypass" abilities you guys speak of... Mara's is only "abilities that require mutation"m and Impale (behind the target and in opposite stance as things like armor and Heal debuff) and WE's have TWO abilities that bypass armor: Pierce armor (10 sec CD) and Agonizing Wound (spammable - must be behind target). All other damage they deal I THINK is mostly phys... So I would still wager a GOOD chunk of their damage (like AAs) are still impacted by armor.... So lets not act like "all the damage these classes deal mitigates armor).

In fact, if you think about it... Adding a "Trivial Blows" impact to Initiative and making ARP "multiplicative" actually LESSENS the "comparable advantage" that these "bypass armor" abilities have which means that by comparison... those abilities/feats are "nerfed".... Especially because both Mara/WE rely heavily on crit damage (and have crit damage buff tactics) which a TB Ini buff would nerf...

So you wanna see Mara nerfed? Make ARP multiplicative, add TB to Initiative...

Anyways, Ive been told that many of the DEVs dont want to touch armor's effectiveness at all, so there is really no point in discussing this.

[Bozzax]

Hmm armor is fine and stacking armor is for baddies.

Stil I'd remove all new talisman slots to jewellery and backs as it enables extrem stacking (or block armor tallies in those just like crits was shoulders only)

Also I'd like to point out that base avoidance coming from willpower (disrupt), initiative (dodge) and weapon skill (parry) needs love as it is almost unnoticeable when everybody have 1000 in off stats.

(Example: Going from 400 to 500 initiative typically gives 0.75% dodge .... Yeeeeeeah!!!! WOW!!! Awesome)

[Rozackroo]

Also, i think we agree on this. I dont see much PHYSICAL burst damage that is out of control... Where a majority of burst comes from is non phys damage - like a BW/Sorc as a perfect example.

You have to be kidding wl burst hello????
You argument is so false I don't even know what to say. You argue every healer is stacking armor so armor has to be OP while also telling me Bw/sorc is out of control really... Nobody who isn't retarded would go for armor when casters are the problem. People go for crazy armor values to keep meeles in check and it's still not strong enough. Every premade is running wl/mara which proves my point quite clearly. So and now you wanna reduce armor to put the classes even more out of balance...
Bw/sorc was king in t3 and guess what more people went for toughness/wounds/Initiative back then.

+There is no reason to reply to everybody with an essay keep your post short you won't win the argument by having longer posts then everybody else.

[Daknallbomb]

Hmm there is a Problem with it! Its to easy to stack! There are engis/magus out there harder than tanks tha a wrong balance! Tanks should be tanky. Not other chars! A engi /magus with 70% distrupt 4500 Amor and still good toughness is a joke! You can build atm unkillable Setups that can be placed on a Flag or something and no even number can kill tham. Thats nit alone an Amor Problem But it is a Problem. Any grp should be killable bye even grp. That brings me to the opinion that Toons can be too tanky and that brings me to the opinion Amor is problem! Its not the prob that toughness Cant be that good As Amor it is more than Amor should be effektiv like toughness not toughness like Amor. Iam rly tired of Things like you Focus a target with two good dps and the target get nearly no dmg. The way to lower dmg is to easy here 100%

[Bozzax]

Engi / magus should be tanky if they go for it nothing wrong with that

(Lets hope some good premade start running them for the CC-carnevale and spanks us bad)

[Daknallbomb]

No magus engi should be effektiv dmg dealer! For what use a tanky cc Maschine in a 6on6 setup When alrdy Tanks do These Job! That makes no sense and you dont have a slot for 3 tanky cc Toons in a six man

[Bozzax]

Why mini-bw or min-sorc does that also imply you should run healer with no dps?

Lets stop here instead of full derail

[Daknallbomb]

Why mini-bw or min-sorc does that also imply you should run healer with no dps?

Lets stop here instead of full derail

It's no derail Amor is to easy to get and thats a Problem But i dont See it isolated i think a lot of def stats are to easy to get

[K13R]

No magus engi should be effektiv dmg dealer! For what use a tanky cc Maschine in a 6on6 setup When alrdy Tanks do These Job! That makes no sense and you dont have a slot for 3 tanky cc Toons in a six man

That was never there roll. They were stationary defensive casters they have a tree to make them sorc lite. So I applaud those tgat build those tanky magus/ engi they are filling thier role as designed. If they are that tanky they do **** for damage.