WL/Mara and IB/BG armor debuff swap

[Tesq]

i asked in advance the permission to penril to re up this , since i belive it was worth to discuss this about but @gate keeper didnt have a mara, just re up as it was wrote by gate.

@Th3gatekeeper

Making this short and sweet.

Right now WLs and Maras are the epitome of MDPS classes and its easy to see why they are MUCH preferred to other MDPS. Also, both the IB and BG are found "lacking" when it comes to group comps ESPECIALLY in groups with WL/Mara. One reason is the armor debuff redundancy...

MY PROPOSAL:
Swap the severity of armor debuffs between the BG/Mara and the WL/IB.
This not only is just a VERY small "nerf" to WL/Mara but also removes redundancy from having the IB and BG in the same party as a Mara/WL... Right now those two tanks are rather moot - considering the armor debuff pales in comparison with the MDPS classes.


So:
White Lion: Force Opportunity (1000 base armor debuff) nerfed to 800.

MAX Stone Breaker (800 base) bumped up to: 250/500/750/1000 at each tier.

Same with:
Cutting Claw (currently 1000) would be bumped down to 800.

Then BG's Horrific Wound adjusted to: 250/500/750/1000 at each tier as well.
Sulfuras - Knight

P.S: i add in addition to gate that consider mara/wl armor debuff is undefitable so it still hold a value over BG/IB one which would be more potent but subject to be block/parry, so eahc one would have his own selling point

P.P.S: idk if there are some error in the values

[Penril]

Moving to Discussions.

[GodlessCrom]

My mara is still only like 39/3x something but my IB is 40/50. I like the change, and I think it might help a little. Biggest issue with IB is that it's buffs are cumbersome compared to Knight (single target, require GCD and/or melee range, often redundant since they don't stack) and it's damage is outshone by Swordmaster. The class still does good damage and is pretty tanky even as 2h (and very tanky as snb). This would help Slayer comps in small scale, since you get the best armor debuff in the game now and dont need to bring White Lion (pet is vulnerable and easy to kill).

Wouldn't mind testing it at all, give me an excuse to stop levelling Knight and break out the ol' dwarf.

Potential issue I could see would be the unintentional and indirect nerfing of melee comps; if Black Guard and Ironbreaker continue to not be taken due to prominence of other tanks, this just means melee (already tougher to play outside of certain six man comps in scs, and even then rdps comps seem reasonably common in my experience) gets sorta stealth nerfed because now Maras and White Lions have weaker armor debuffs and so less damage for the whole melee group. In other words, if this doesn't prove enough to make IB and BG desirable over Sm/Blorc (nearly all groups will continue to use knight/chosen if they run 2 tanks), then this becomes an indirect nerf to melee comp viability.

[peterthepan3]

I don't agree with you in regards to your statement that WL is the 'epitome' of MDPS: in pug situations? Sure, but in a competitive environment? Nah. I'm not too sure how much weight such arguments carry anymore, but the WL can easily be replaced in competitive fights due to the fact that it is easily countered.

The WL only brings an armor debuff to the group. You bring a WL for the strongest armor debuff in the game, and for burst. If the strongest armor debuff in the game now belongs to a tank archetype, then there would be no need to bring a WL at all: IB/SL/WH or IB/SL/SW comps would flourish even more than they already do.

Sure, the IB could do with some love, but I strongly believe that the reason IB gets shafted half the time is that most people do not know how to play it/disregard its plethora of utility simply because it doesn't have SM-like damage.

I also disagree that IB/BG are found 'lacking'. People just: a) need to learn how to play the class to its utmost potential; b) stop comparing the class with the DPS tanks, i.e. SM/BO. The amount of utility BG/IB bring over SM/BO is insane; spammable outgoing heal debuff, people?!

In retrospect, I wouldn't mind trying it out, but I don't think either class is as weak, or overly performing, as is made out, and if IB/BG are already rendered 'useless' by the vast majority, I don't see how improving their armor debuff would do anything to alleviate the complexity of playing the class (it is easily one of the hardest classes to excel at)

btw my argument pertains more to the WL than the Marauder. even without strongest armor debuff, mara will still always have a spot due to plethora of debuffs/utility.

[th3gatekeeper]

You bring a WL for the strongest armor debuff in the game, and for burst. If the strongest armor debuff in the game now belongs to a tank archetype, then there would be no need to bring a WL

Wouldnt this allow WLs to create new "specs" though? Since for competitive play they would no longer need to spec Path of The Hunter and could instead invest points elsewhere? POSSIBLY going for Thin the Herd now when coupled with an IB for the Armor Debuff he provides? POSSIBLY moving away from the "default" 2-2-2 group involving 1 or 2 KOBS + WL etc. etc. Into possibly a Path of The Axeman or Guardian specced WL coupled with an IB?

At the end of the day, going from a 1000 armor debuff to an 800 doesnt REALLY change the picture all that much. But it does seem to me, to give now a viable reason to say "lets bring an IB" rather than defaulting to the other tank options.


I also agree with GodlessCrom ," Biggest issue with IB is that it's buffs are cumbersome compared to Knight (single target, require GCD and/or melee range, often redundant since they don't stack) and it's damage is outshone by Swordmaster."

Same is true for the BG compared to Chosen and BO, but thats a moot point ATM and I think once KOBS/Chosen auras become more "focused" this will change.

[GodlessCrom]

Thin the Herd is outgoing heal debuff: IB would have Punshing Knock specced, most likely, and so it would be mostly useless.

Like i said, I wouldn't mind testing the change. I would also like it if we could get some hard numbers vis a vis the debuffs in question, since the Mara/WL debuff doesn't hit for 1000, it hits for more because of the points spent in the tree to unlock it. Similarly, Ib/purple elf can potentially have base number if not specced into right tree, or have more if specced higher (most likely only if 2h spec, since no other reason to go into tree).

I wouldn't mind gathering these numbers on my IB if someone doesn't mind: i.e. how much armor do typical IB specs debuff (cave win spec, snb spec w/ and w/o grumble, etc) when at 25-100 grudge, and what percentage of mitigation does that remove. Then compare this to how much WL/Mara in typical specs (sav/brut for Mara, and whatever WLs spec after force opportunity/pounce) debuff, and how much that impacts mitigation, and then record the difference between the two.

Just so that we know the actual difference in terms of mitigation removed between these classes/specs.

[Jaycub]

In the rdps heavy meta we are in WL/Mara m1 root and pulls are imo why they are used not the armor debuff.

IB is legitimately lacking right now and this would certainly help. BG is in a much better spot both in comparison to IB and in comparison to its counterparts on destro. But That's not to say this would make BG overpowered or do anything to unseat mara from its current position. Also remember because BO also has an armor debuff destro is more flush with them than order.

This would be a minor change, but I don't see any harm. IB could certainly use it at least to make it more desirable compared to knight/SM.

[Aurandilaz]

went on my BG 40/46 with full Malice tree
went on my 32/35 WL and maxed Path of the Hunter tree (not sure if it gets better with higher career rank? like 1600 maximum?)
(noticed that War builders but the WL debuff value at 1000, then with bare minimum to Hunter Tree debuff was at 1200 (9 points), at 13 points (for some Axe spamming) it became 1360... so assuming that with 4 points increase, the value rose from 1200 to 1360, meaning 40 extra with every MP spent further, to maximum of 1440 at 15 points - that is unless my WLs career rank 32 keeps it from reaching its full maximum, which might be 1600? if my memory isn't too hazy)
feel free to correct me though

speccing full Malice as BG is a valid option if you really want the dps to hit the soft spot and even deeper


Anyway, regarding "improving" BG/IB, slight increase to armor debuffs is way nowhere enough.

Because lets face it, this is a group game. You play in parties. Now why would a party want a tank that does ST buffing, when it could take a tank that does GROUP WIDE BUFFING. This is the core reason why so many parties choose to have SM/Kotb or BO/chosen, simply because those are tanks that help group more than selfish ST debuffers/buffers.
Of course, there are good BG/IB players who shine on those classes, and some of them are extraordinary group players who really know how to play the class. However, it doesn't matter because in the end the class is still not a real group support tank.

Now if you want to make IB/BG into a more demanded group support tank, this proposal alone is not enough.
However if you want to make IB/BG into a more "deadly mdps train 3rd dps", then sure, increasing the armor debuffs is gonna help them slightly, even if it makes mara/WL slightly less deadly on their own.

[Kretschmer]

Lets not forget there is big difference between WL/ Mara and IB/BG armor debuff abilities:
Ease of Use
White LIon and Marauder have good mobility abilities and pulls, they also have high armor debuff abilities on demand. They can pick targets from long range and quickly debuff.
Ironbreaker and Blackguard for lower armor debuffs still need not only to reach targets but to get 100 Grudges/ 100 Hate.
My 40/42 WL, 10 pts in hunter tree, Force Opportunity 1400 armor debuff
my 40/41 Marauder, 11 pts savagery tree, Cutting Claw 1440 armor debuff
my 40/44 Ironbreaker, not typical 15 pts vengeance tree, Stone Breaker 1280 armor debuff with 100 grudges, 960 at 75 grudges, 640 at 50 and 320 at 25 grudges. More often will be 11 pts vengeance, Stone Breaker 1152 armor debuff 100 grudges
my 40/47 Blackguard, 14 pts malice tree, Horrific Wound 1248 at 100 hate, 936 at 75, 624 at 50 and 312 at 25 hate.

I like the change, it can bring some new options.
I feel we have tons of WL and Maras around while IB/BG are rare when u compare them not only to knight/chosen but SM/BO too.

[TenTonHammer]

And to add on to that ease of use comment let us also not forget to mention the fact that WL/Mara armor debuff is undefendable, the ability being so gives even less justification as to why they should have access to the highest value armor debuffs in the game