Crit Reduction

[Darosh]

Iirc crit reduction only affects your own ctbc, meaning you can negate debuffs and alike with it. It does not, however, affect enemy crit chances. At this point, I doubt that there are intertwined mechanics.

This entire thing could be resolved by getting to when exactly crit is being taken into account in the combat formulas, rather than how.

As to base crit, iirc there is only a base crit for heals - offensive (base) crits are entirely covered by initiative. It'd be interesting to see how it'd work out if healcrit was directly coupled with initiative, too. Meaning: You could go glass and neglect your initiative (and ctbc in general), therefor increasing your healers crit alongside your enemies.

[roadkillrobin]

My conclusion was that tactic, renown, buff and gear crit and anti crits all works differently.

what do you think works better? Renown Futile Strikes, or renown Ini, or gear anticrit, or gear ini?

FS seems to work under all conditions.
Anti crit tactics the same.
Unsure about anti crit gear.
And almoast 100% that +critbuffs can't be negated at all.

I tested this with mixed ressault.

-6 to be crit vs a SH with 5% crit chance and crit happened.

Another test with -16 to be crit vs WE with 15 crit chance and crit never happened.

My conclusion was that tactic, renown, buff and gear crit and anti crits all works differently.

I assume you did, but just gotta ask, did you take into account the "invisible" 5% basecrit? Actually not 100% it's a thing, but iirc it is.

I tested WE vs Haojun and SH vs Leaky and asked em to spec exactly those crit vallues so.

The 5% invisible base crit only affects healing afaik. Inc crit dmg doesn't need the invisible numbers as initiative regulate that it can't really go bellow 5-6% until you start stacking enough renownpoints into FS and anti crit gear.

[lefze]

My conclusion was that tactic, renown, buff and gear crit and anti crits all works differently.

what do you think works better? Renown Futile Strikes, or renown Ini, or gear anticrit, or gear ini?

FS seems to work under all conditions.
Anti crit tactics the same.
Unsure about anti crit gear.
And almoast 100% that +critbuffs can't be negated at all.

I tested this with mixed ressault.

-6 to be crit vs a SH with 5% crit chance and crit happened.

Another test with -16 to be crit vs WE with 15 crit chance and crit never happened.

My conclusion was that tactic, renown, buff and gear crit and anti crits all works differently.

I assume you did, but just gotta ask, did you take into account the "invisible" 5% basecrit? Actually not 100% it's a thing, but iirc it is.

I tested WE vs Haojun and SH vs Leaky and asked em to spec exactly those crit vallues so.

The 5% invisible base crit only affects healing afaik. Inc crit dmg doesn't need the invisible numbers as initiative regulate that it can't really go bellow 5-6% until you start stacking enough renownpoints into FS and anti crit gear.

I have to agree with the 5% basecrit only affecting heals now that it's mentioned. Did you test initiative debuffs aswell, or only flat % debuffs? After playing with double initiative debuff on SW for a good while now, I'm actually starting to suspect that the incoming crit chance stat is not as simple as it's made out to be, and that your results indeed show that some deeper mechanic is in play.

[Aurandilaz]

Wasn't the hidden base crit chance 10% back on live, or is my memory becoming that bad over the years - or was it 5% even back then; or was it somehow adjusted? I remember some lengthy discussions back on live regarding the hidden base crit value, but I might honestly be mistaken.

[Nekkma]

As I remember it the base crit on live was indeed 10 %.

[CeeJay89]

Iirc crit reduction only affects your own ctbc, meaning you can negate debuffs and alike with it. It does not, however, affect enemy crit chances. At this point, I doubt that there are intertwined mechanics.

This entire thing could be resolved by getting to when exactly crit is being taken into account in the combat formulas, rather than how.

As to base crit, iirc there is only a base crit for heals - offensive (base) crits are entirely covered by initiative. It'd be interesting to see how it'd work out if healcrit was directly coupled with initiative, too. Meaning: You could go glass and neglect your initiative (and ctbc in general), therefor increasing your healers crit alongside your enemies.

Any dev can confirm this? This makes Futile Strikes relatively...unappealing if that's the case.

[Axerker]

Iirc crit reduction only affects your own ctbc, meaning you can negate debuffs and alike with it. It does not, however, affect enemy crit chances. At this point, I doubt that there are intertwined mechanics.

This entire thing could be resolved by getting to when exactly crit is being taken into account in the combat formulas, rather than how.

As to base crit, iirc there is only a base crit for heals - offensive (base) crits are entirely covered by initiative. It'd be interesting to see how it'd work out if healcrit was directly coupled with initiative, too. Meaning: You could go glass and neglect your initiative (and ctbc in general), therefor increasing your healers crit alongside your enemies.

Any dev can confirm this? This makes Futile Strikes relatively...unappealing if that's the case.

Would certainly make me want to stack more +Crit% gear

[Darosh]

Iirc crit reduction only affects your own ctbc, meaning you can negate debuffs and alike with it. It does not, however, affect enemy crit chances. At this point, I doubt that there are intertwined mechanics.

This entire thing could be resolved by getting to when exactly crit is being taken into account in the combat formulas, rather than how.

As to base crit, iirc there is only a base crit for heals - offensive (base) crits are entirely covered by initiative. It'd be interesting to see how it'd work out if healcrit was directly coupled with initiative, too. Meaning: You could go glass and neglect your initiative (and ctbc in general), therefor increasing your healers crit alongside your enemies.

Any dev can confirm this? This makes Futile Strikes relatively...unappealing if that's the case.

How would that make FS unappealing? Even if my observations were to be correct - mind you, I, as much as everyone else base one's statements on one's own observations and tests, for which's validity there ultimately is no gurantee whatsoever, so take it with a grain of salt - Futile Strikes (in conjunction with initiative, but much more so without initiative ~ if you for whatever reason can't invest in it, may that be due to bad access on your class and gear or w/e) is the only reliable (= class/gear independent) tool to keep your ctbc in check with.

Your main goal with crit reductions is to get your ctbc to, or close to, 0.0% - in particular postdebuff. Reducing enemy crit would be equally as much overkill as simply not worth the investment, unless you'd like to run super wetnoodle-deftard. ~ Let alone the massive imbalance between order and destro in that very regard.

Abbd.:
Note: This discussion, just as similar ones, is quite old and the issue hasn't been resolved/cleared up by the devs yet, I doubt they'll chime in and enlighten us anytime soon either.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

what do you think works better? Renown Futile Strikes, or renown Ini, or gear anticrit, or gear ini?

FS seems to work under all conditions.
Anti crit tactics the same.
Unsure about anti crit gear.
And almoast 100% that +critbuffs can't be negated at all.

I assume you did, but just gotta ask, did you take into account the "invisible" 5% basecrit? Actually not 100% it's a thing, but iirc it is.

I tested WE vs Haojun and SH vs Leaky and asked em to spec exactly those crit vallues so.

The 5% invisible base crit only affects healing afaik. Inc crit dmg doesn't need the invisible numbers as initiative regulate that it can't really go bellow 5-6% until you start stacking enough renownpoints into FS and anti crit gear.

I have to agree with the 5% basecrit only affecting heals now that it's mentioned. Did you test initiative debuffs aswell, or only flat % debuffs? After playing with double initiative debuff on SW for a good while now, I'm actually starting to suspect that the incoming crit chance stat is not as simple as it's made out to be, and that your results indeed show that some deeper mechanic is in play.

Im not playing very activily so dunno about stacking ini debuffs. What are the values?
Iniative is a progressive stat that is very unstable at very high and low vallues. If your core initiative is low and you get debuffed the chance of you getting crit skyrockets. But meanwhile if you get buffed with low initiative its gonna have the moast effect. A stable Initiative at 40 is supose to be around 220-240 if i remember correctly and give you a base chance between 10-12% to be crit.

If the debuff portion is more then half this 110+ the crit chance gona go up alot. If were talking about a 160 (80+80) stack its out of the mind busted imo.
Some classes gonna be at 80% base crit, and then add any other +crit modifiers to this.

Choppa had this tactic on live that stacked with Maras/Sorcs Initiative debuff and it was changed coz of how busted it was. It's mirrored on SW as a single target tactic. Choppa trigger was on critproc.

SW one is tactic statsteal on Grim Slash and old Choppa version of Waz dat yer finger used to steal Initiative.

If people run around with 80% chance to be crit due to bad stacking rules then FS is relatively useless in comparision and you would be better of stacking initiative to negate the harsh debuff.

[lefze]

Spoiler:

FS seems to work under all conditions.
Anti crit tactics the same.
Unsure about anti crit gear.
And almoast 100% that +critbuffs can't be negated at all.



I tested WE vs Haojun and SH vs Leaky and asked em to spec exactly those crit vallues so.

The 5% invisible base crit only affects healing afaik. Inc crit dmg doesn't need the invisible numbers as initiative regulate that it can't really go bellow 5-6% until you start stacking enough renownpoints into FS and anti crit gear.

I have to agree with the 5% basecrit only affecting heals now that it's mentioned. Did you test initiative debuffs aswell, or only flat % debuffs? After playing with double initiative debuff on SW for a good while now, I'm actually starting to suspect that the incoming crit chance stat is not as simple as it's made out to be, and that your results indeed show that some deeper mechanic is in play.

Im not playing very activily so dunno about stacking ini debuffs. What are the values?
Iniative is a progressive stat that is very unstable at very high and low vallues. If your core initiative is low and you get debuffed the chance of you getting crit skyrockets. But meanwhile if you get buffed with low initiative its gonna have the moast effect. A stable Initiative at 40 is supose to be around 220-240 if i remember correctly and give you a base chance between 10-12% to be crit.

If the debuff portion is more then half this 110+ the crit chance gona go up alot. If were talking about a 160 (80+80) stack its out of the mind busted imo.
Some classes gonna be at 80% base crit, and then add any other +crit modifiers to this.

Choppa had this tactic on live that stacked with Maras/Sorcs Initiative debuff and it was changed coz of how busted it was. It's mirrored on SW as a single target tactic. Choppa trigger was on critproc.

SW one is tactic statsteal on Grim Slash and old Choppa version of Waz dat yer finger used to steal Initiative.

If people run around with 80% chance to be crit due to bad stacking rules then FS is relatively useless in comparision and you would be better of stacking initiative to negate the harsh debuff.

It's a 180 initiative debuff. I'm seeing average crit numbers in the low 40% range, some stuff is a bit lower though. And this leads me to believe there is some mechanic at play that isn't widely known, because the numbers should definetly be higher in theory.

Edit: Should also mention that the averages are from playing with 21% crit iirc.