Initiative Scaling/Stacking: An Experiment

[Sulorie]

Well, picking high init classes with plenty init on BIS gear isn't the best example to proof something.
Take classes with 200 init and then look how much you have to invest to not sit at 70%+ inc crit chance after one easy debuff and a 100% uptime proc.

[Dabbart]

Well, picking high init classes with plenty init on BIS gear isn't the best example to proof something.
Take classes with 200 init and then look how much you have to invest to not sit at 70%+ inc crit chance after one easy debuff and a 100% uptime proc.

If you only have 200 init, then any debuff from any class will bump you to very high lvls of crit... Bo/SM 120 debuff, WH/WE 80(?) debuff, AM puddle 50(which really should be on sham too btw), etc etc. Only having 200 init and complaining about the amount you are being crit is a very bad argument...

If you are going glass cannon, then expect to blow up from time to time. And yes, I mained a BO for quite awhile, they get **** init from gear. So when I was main tank, I had full init slotted. When I went DPS, I blew up, but I could crit for 1.6k per THC swing. You can't have it both ways.

And stacking init isn't only to combat 1 combo. It's not like Dodge that literally only impacts 3 classes. 2 of which are on order side...

[Sulorie]

Well, picking high init classes with plenty init on BIS gear isn't the best example to proof something.
Take classes with 200 init and then look how much you have to invest to not sit at 70%+ inc crit chance after one easy debuff and a 100% uptime proc.

If you only have 200 init, then any debuff from any class will bump you to very high lvls of crit... Bo/SM 120 debuff, WH/WE 80(?) debuff, AM puddle 50(which really should be on sham too btw), etc etc. Only having 200 init and complaining about the amount you are being crit is a very bad argument...

If you are going glass cannon, then expect to blow up from time to time. And yes, I mained a BO for quite awhile, they get **** init from gear. So when I was main tank, I had full init slotted. When I went DPS, I blew up, but I could crit for 1.6k per THC swing. You can't have it both ways.

And stacking init isn't only to combat 1 combo. It's not like Dodge that literally only impacts 3 classes. 2 of which are on order side...

Read again , I wrote 200 base init with gear. Add another 50 from zeal/rp buff for 250. Now you have to invest significant amounts of renown/talismans points to push init to not blow in an instant due to the exponential inc crit increase.
It was already explained, why the dodge increase is not notable.
The stacked debuff is a huge damage multiplier for the whole group and only one side has to invest a lot in it and neglect other stats at the same time.
It is mind-boggling to me how people can talk it down like it is a non-issue.

[Dabbart]

K... So. 250 init to get to "safe" space of 350ish, needs 100. That's 4 talis. As I stated, if you don't want to be crit all the time, stack init and FS. There's a reason I laugh when I see everyone and their mother stacking Armor and ignoring everything else. Btw, this is all ignoring Liniments, which can either give +60 init or -5% chance to be crit, or -10% crit damage taken...

I was joking about Dodge...

Yes. Double debuff init can cause huge spikes in crits. Dps Zealot with a chosen/BO can triple debuff someone's Corp Resistance on a 60s timer, and double debuff with 100% uptime, with a potential double armor debuff. Order can't do that. Triple debuffing someone's corp down can lead to how much of a static damage increase? No one freaks out over that, cause it requires a sub-par build. Same with ASW.


Edit: Seriously, run the math out. How much of a gain do you receive from having an ASW with 5p conq vs just running a standard WH, SM, or AM puddle? What is the actual DPS difference to a group between an ASW or a EW specced WH? If people are already stacking crit as high as they do(25%+ in a lot of DPS class cases(ignoring BW/sorc), then init debuffs do hit a point of diminishing returns. Now, they allow you to spec far more defensively and utilize the init debuff for all of your crit rate, but then, super punt/stagger the ASW and push on the backlines. Use tactics and counter abilities.


Mate, ALL initiative debuffs are vicous against someone not investing in their chance to be crit. And if you go balls out stacking init, then you will be weak somewhere else. That's the point.

[Tesq]

K... So. 250 init to get to "safe" space of 350ish, needs 100. That's 4 talis. As I stated, if you don't want to be crit all the time, stack init and FS. There's a reason I laugh when I see everyone and their mother stacking Armor and ignoring everything else. Btw, this is all ignoring Liniments, which can either give +60 init or -5% chance to be crit, or -10% crit damage taken...

I was joking about Dodge...

Yes. Double debuff init can cause huge spikes in crits. Dps Zealot with a chosen/BO can triple debuff someone's Corp Resistance on a 60s timer, and double debuff with 100% uptime, with a potential double armor debuff. Order can't do that. Triple debuffing someone's corp down can lead to how much of a static damage increase? No one freaks out over that, cause it requires a sub-par build. Same with ASW.


Edit: Seriously, run the math out. How much of a gain do you receive from having an ASW with 5p conq vs just running a standard WH, SM, or AM puddle? What is the actual DPS difference to a group between an ASW or a EW specced WH? If people are already stacking crit as high as they do(25%+ in a lot of DPS class cases(ignoring BW/sorc), then init debuffs do hit a point of diminishing returns. Now, they allow you to spec far more defensively and utilize the init debuff for all of your crit rate, but then, super punt/stagger the ASW and push on the backlines. Use tactics and counter abilities.


Mate, ALL initiative debuffs are vicous against someone not investing in their chance to be crit. And if you go balls out stacking init, then you will be weak somewhere else. That's the point.

you are speaking of a general dmg multipler vs a very specific class dmg increaser which do not work on all hit done from your party you know that right?

-ini dobuff buff WHOLE group dmg REGARDLESS compositiom
-Corporeal debuff buff ONLY those skills which do CORP dmg which are some zeal and very few sorc ones and a 5 sec cd BO(the debuff).

also ignoring the fact that sw in melee mode behave like a malee def stat wise while sorc/zealot do not and that combo require a tank and 2 dps to be fully use instead 1 single class alone [and is still not a generic dmg multipler like sw one.

again as i said there are counters and ppl do not need 350 just 330 ....but why order realm can keep stack armor tali if that is the case and destru cant?

"E": INEQUALITY (should) work for both sides not for just one man....
"add" : there is no such thing as a proc on corp dmg as for crit from sm/bo ones...

[Dabbart]

If you build a group for Corp damage, then yes. it does impact all damage from your party.

That Z spec does require melee. The attack required is a 40ft cone. The Z requires defensive stats/guard as well. Bomb sorc tends to require a guard and defensive gear also. SW gets armor boosted in melee mode, that's the only real difference. This is ignoring the double armor debuff that is applied also, which impacts every melee attack the target suffers...

And the SW requires a guard for ASW to "work". Unless you're blowing a tactic on aoe detaunt as well, in which case say bye bye to dps.

I shouldn't of brought up that particular combo, it was just to make a point. There are a few random combo's that can produce a very nice combined debuff for potential damage. You still gotta do the damage and bring the target down though.

I don't believe ASW is game breaking in any way. It can be strong, sure. But to say the entirety of destro has to stack init talis specifically to counter this is asinine. You should be under 5% to be crit at the very minimum, or simply accept that you are glass cannon.

Note: I might of entirely misread Tesq there.