New player seeking advice about classes ingame (mainly Black Guard and Destruction classes, but in general)

[Cortrillion]

First of all, Hello everyone. I am very new to the server and the game, so please forgive my newbie style question.

I’m writing here because I need some reassurance that I am not wasting my time really. I am putting this here, because there is no Order/Destruction discussion forum. If I’m wrong please move it to the correct forum.

So… I started a Black Guard because of the hatred resource and the look. I am rank 23 at the moment and the class feels very weak. Now I did not expect to feel powerful at such an early level so that is all good. It is a bit strange how I get completely dominated by any opponent of my level or even lower, like Witch Hunter, White Lion, Warrior Priests, Rune Priests, Shadow Hunters, Knights of the Blazing Sun, Iron Breakers and Arch Mages. Also, Bright wizards and Engineers but only if I cannot get to them. I am expecting that this must be due mainly with my gear and lack of skill.

I was trying to look around for some skill guides, some L2P videos for example, and I cam across a nice set made for the Iron Breaker. Now this is of cause not really a Black Guard, but as Iron Breaker and Black Guard are mirrors occupying the same space on opposite sides, I thought I might be able to use them. Now of cause the different skills have different names and that sort. But all in all they would be very similar.

So I use the Career Builder to look at the black guard skills and compare them to the skills that this nice Iron breaker is using. I quickly become apparent that the Skills offered to the Iron Breaker are Somewhat better and obtained at lover level or with less investment of points then the skills of the Black Guard. How ever the Black Guard has some very nice skill sets that can make up for the very clear difference. Some of the main offenders are the Iron Breaker skills like Heavy Blow and stubborn as stone.
But Black Guards have other nice things. Crimson Death at 14 fx. Hasten Doom just below. And even though they have much worse basic defense and utility skills, they can get some good once in skills. The 3% parry pr. 10 hate tactic Anger drives me for 4 points in Loathing, very much a must have, especially if you want to go great weapon and crimson death route. So the IB can get the insanely strong Grumble An’mutter along with cave in and earth shatter. BG can of cause not get Crimson death along with bolstering Anger and Anger drives me, but that may be ok. A little more offense and some tankiness with parry in exchange for the selfheal.

But when I log into game to get the parry tactic that would be just what I need, I hit like a wet noodle and I tank like a paper bag… also wet… so some parry would be just what I need. THANK GOD there is a good tactic to get early as the base tactics of the BG are just horrible bad. Anyway… I can’t get it. It is changed to 12 points into the tree..
So my question. And it is a Newbie one. IS the grass greener? It looks like the Iron Breaker has much stronger utility and crowed control, starting at a very early level, but they also have stronger defense, starting at an earlier level. BUT they also have much stronger Offense at late levels.

IS this true? Because, umm, Balance is good. I would very much like you all to tell me l2p and that it is all in my head. Tell me what the BG can do better than the IB. OR at the very least tell me this is temporary and that balance can sometimes shift in one or the other direction and that it will all be resolved soonish.

Failing all that. Please tell me, what Destruction class is better than the order equivalent but, mostly tell what class is the same and in balance, so I can maybe look to play that. I’m a lowish skill level and I need all the help I can get.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Cort

[Glorian]

viewforum.php?f=73

Dark Elf subforum for classes and builds and such.
Not sure if there are builds or guides for the BL there.
I don't look there usually.

[Cortrillion]

Ya, but that was the problem. That is a forum only for Dark Elfs. I wanted feedback fomr players not paying Dark Elfs. Maybe playing Order classes.

[Nidwin]

I deleted my BG (was lvl 17 or something like that) Yesterday evening and created a Magus.
The BG mechanic is interresting but as OP wrote, it hits like a wet noodle. I also find the BG skills animations annoying and it got on my nerves, so poof the BG.

Cort,
may be you could give the Marauder a try if you want to keep it to destruction gameplay.
A choppa could also be a choice if you want to keep it to melee gameplay.

[Aurandilaz]

I don't know of any BG capable of pulling Volgograd-like gameplay shenanigans... well BG is a fine offensive tank, for hitting solid numbers and assisting a meleetrain with things like Crimson Death, or AoE snare or Woundsdebuff or armour debuff or toughness debuff and snare debuff and possible the longest ST punt in the game unless I remember wrong. (and more possible stuff like ST KD on demand, outgoing healdebuff, anticrit buff, absorb bubble on ally, Willpower boost on healer...)
You probably don't want a BG for a warband, but for 6man why not - all the aforementioned buffs makes the class a very solid for pick for classic Destro mara+choppa meleetrain.

IB has somewhat similar 10-20 piano-setup for debuffs (try making your fingers reach all those 20 debuffs or something) - some might be better for IB, some might be better for BG; afaik BG gets Hate up easier - on the other hand IB doesn't get left behind in warbands due to not having less moral pumps than other tanks (all order tanks with zero moral pump tactics, but BG only destro tank without one)

BG compliments a Destro meleetrain almost perfectly - IB is good also for Order meleetrains, but it's quite a tough pick these days with tanks since you want kotb/chosen for aoe aura buffs/debuffs, BG/IB for very valuable ST buffs/debuffs plus decent dmg and BO/SM for both dmg and utility.

Sure, lot of the BG stuff is at high cost in mastery trees and IB gets lot of juicy stuff with relatively little cost, but it's not like you were going to play a BG with Shield anyway due to how much better their 2h spec is.
Maybe IB is better for soloing these days, but a well played offensive BG running with a train of Mara and Choppa and a BO - well any target will melt when that meleetrain hits you.

[Ravenfox]

i have all melee dps and chosen/bg max

only thing i can thnk of for tanks is the mechanic and if you want an armor debuff just play w/e u want (in terms of pressing buttons) i hate the BG buttons lol same with black orc but u can get an addon

witch elf double heal debuff light armor, stealth with nice openers, good escape options aswell like agile escape(leap back and stagger thing) and a swift movements tactic witch combines a speed boost and anti snare in one button, something no other class has and an init debuff - theres lots of deep war philosophy involved since WE is one of the squishiest classes in the game really, you gotta go glass cannon some way or tanky some way or maybe some fine medium

mara i dont know alot actually but just look at the skills and the required mutation as far as i know its generally a bad idea to switch mutations necause of the very low initiative the class has, it would pretty much increase your chance to be crit by 20% unless u stacked iniative not from the tactic, and monstrosity idk its just tanky asf and medium armor vs witch elf its got mostly the same crap no heal debuff something u can rely on others for if u want, but its got some other nice stuff if u look at the career builder, as for the tactics idk what optimal is but as witch elf u commonly stack flat dmg increase % tactics i see on mara u use flat crit ones and maybe an armor pen one

choppa dont know alot but has alot of damage potential cuz of their mechanic i fink 2h is quite behind dual wield , 2h gives u 10% block strike through and an extra finisher move that hits pretty hard but duel wield gives u 10% parry and access to other abilities and as choppa u will be one of the first to be targeted 2h also gets a crit increase tactic witch is cool cuz u can stack crit real well or anti crit well in this game to be effective, most classes have a passive bonus of 10% chance to be crit because of their iniative stat so people could get like 39% crit on paper or something idk

[tazdingo]

The 3% parry pr. 10 hate tactic Anger drives me for 4 points in Loathing, very much a must have, especially if you want to go great weapon and crimson death route.

not so. you can now spend renown points on strikethrough

the point being, if somebody wants to dps, and is dedicated to being a killer, they don't care about your avoidance. WHs and WLs will hit you in the back. BW has strikethrough tools, as do all HE classes. engi is just gonna pile on the assists. slayers just do not care about your parry at all, ect. the BG avoidance tools look really nice, but in practice they're not that great for countering burst from actual dps classes, and as a tank what kills you is getting piled on from behind when the order is given. if you wanna guardbot sure, that parry is really, really nice, but it doesn't sound like that's what you wanna do

[Kretschmer]

Starting IB now wont be good in ur case - u may end up facing lots of enemy melee with small number order melee classes around u.
Both classes BG and IB are hard to master, both have lowest number ppl at rank 80+ rr on server.
They are good as 6 th 10 th alt but not so much as 1 st clas here, espec when u not played live. U need gear, higher renown level, in game experience and some skill for rotations. U need scenario weapons/epic quest weapons and full sets or good mixture of sets to make it work.
If u like dps tank Black Orc or Swordmaster seems to be much easier, straight choice.
If u want to kill your enemy fast - WE, WH or some other mdps classes seem to be easier way.

[ragafury]

BG is the to go 2hd Tank for roaming and scenarios for Destruction.
would state that's common community opinion.

both tanks, IB and BG, are also very capable of soloing.

IB and BG play very different in 2hd specs imo.

SNB is somewhat similar, but lackluster overall compared to BO / SM and KOTBS / Chosen, could also say undesired. IB has nice synergy with Slayer, no matter which scale you play.

Using the Career Builder is a mistake, because it's outdated. Like very outdated, especially for BG, so you picked with out knowing a bad source for information.
BG got lot of rearrangement of skills and tactics, and also even received new skills.

as an example, the 3% parry tactic got moved way up but you have now a skill in the 2hd tree which grants you 25% parry dodge disrupt, it's a channel though.

I would argue that playing tanks takes a bit of experience, especially the gearing and speccing and where to aquire gear when doing so.

it's hard to commend you a spec since the builder is that much out of date.

also keep in mind, bolster has only full effect if your gear is constantly updated.
means if you are lvl 23, and you still wear gear which is for level 14s etc. it doesn't have the full effect. If you are not in a hurry, I recommend soaking up all the renown you can get.

What BG does better?
offers more bursty dmg, which is demanded for smallscale, has Crimson Death (10% crit, one of the most bursty AOE attacks for a tank) as you stated, can cripple enemy defenses with Howl, has a knockdown in 2hd spec, can manage it's mechanic fluidly via Enraged Beating, can handle guard dmg on demand with Rebounding Hatred. has a punt M2 which can be great at certain situations (Away Cretins!).

the rest of the utility BG offers is mirrored to IB basically, IB has an easier time handling CCs in general he receives, is a bit more dmg over time / pressure based / Orientated (base skills have dot component (binding grudge, Heavy Blow, Punishing Blow) and usually specs for dots in grp enviroments (Cave In) , and can fix order setups as an offensive tank when they lack armor debuff (no WL). IB has an AOE snare, which BG practically can't reach anymore.
IB is a bit more niche.

That's what I would consider the prime advantages and differences in general.

If you are leveling make sure your renown is invested in a meaningful way.
For me personally, it's always specced into "Reflexes " and "Deft Defender" as 2nd priority.
increasing your initiative or capping defensive crit values is not really possible.
That effort takes some higher level tier sets, jewelry and weapons in general.

I also would state, if you play solo, you are missing a lot of what both class bring in general, cause your positive effects get shared with your oathbro / dark protected pleb.

In general:

I wouldn't overthink how a class plays with level X.

Prime example:
SM / BO; before Aether Dance / Tree Hit Combo the class plays like garbage, so you need level 29/30/31 to a actually get a picture of the class.

[Cortrillion]

Some very good points, thanks all for taking the time.

Especially thank you Ragefury . That was very useful. I'm 23/33 at the moment. Trying to get as much pvp as I can get. If I can find help I will try to get the mayham set in a level or two. I think that should help.

Cort