IB and Slayer are gradually getting weaker as the game progresses

[shaggyboomboom]

Armour won't help you against moral dump

That's fine. It isn't supposed to.
But letting a cloth healer withstand 3 or 4 DPS because they have ridiculous inflated tank-levels of armor is not okay in my opinion. That coupled with guards and detaunts makes competent healers practically invincible without at least 5 people on them. Healing is extremely strong in this game, and that would be fine if those healers were fragile, as they were meant to be by design. But they aren't. It's like having a glass cannon DPS, except the plethora of armor turns that glass cannon into an actual cannon with no weaknesses.

Oh wait that happens too. Which is one of the reasons why ranged DPS is so much more 'meta' than melee; you get all the damage of melee and none of the downsides because your cloth armor is reinforced with armor talismans and armor pots that put you at max physical damage reduction.

nice dps you got there mate

[Fey]

Strong healers is absolutely one of this game's strengths. In general people want to hit and kill people in a competitive game. The healing/support role in ANY game is generally less compelling than the satisfaction of caving in your opponent's breastplate with your boss Warhammer like Robert Baratheon.

I mained AM on live, and I main shaman here. I mained healer in GW, and SWtOR. It's because I can't stand playing with incompetent healing, not because I find the gameplay that enthralling. I warn you, do not piss off your healers with nerfs. We already put up with complaints of no heals and other such nonsense.

[adamthelc]

I've said it for years:
Remove armor pots.
Remove armor talismans.
Letting cloth classes get to maximum physical damage reduction was a mistake by Mythic that never should have been continued.

Removing armor pots wouldnt really do much. It would just make things like Prayer of absolution and regenerative shielding better.

High end armor talismans might be over the top. But for someone who is so aggressively order biased you should know that RPs are the biggest potential culprit of the issue you described.

Even getting to 75% or near doesnt mean you are going to stay there after armor pen and debuffs. Relatively high armor on a robe healer isnt insignificant, but there are a lot of things that contribute to healer survivability. Guard, detaunt, high ranged avoidance and other things are a much bigger factor than armor talismans alone.

[DokB]

Spoiler:

Armour won't help you against moral dump

That's fine. It isn't supposed to.
But letting a cloth healer withstand 3 or 4 DPS because they have ridiculous inflated tank-levels of armor is not okay in my opinion. That coupled with guards and detaunts makes competent healers practically invincible without at least 5 people on them. Healing is extremely strong in this game, and that would be fine if those healers were fragile, as they were meant to be by design. But they aren't. It's like having a glass cannon DPS, except the plethora of armor turns that glass cannon into an actual cannon with no weaknesses.

Oh wait that happens too. Which is one of the reasons why ranged DPS is so much more 'meta' than melee; you get all the damage of melee and none of the downsides because your cloth armor is reinforced with armor talismans and armor pots that put you at max physical damage reduction.

On what planet does 3 or 4 DPS not kill a cloth healer? Was Stevie Wonder & Ray Charles on DPS?

[kmark101]

This thread quickly turned into discussion about armor pots, armor talis and even healers... what the heck, it was not my intention by any means, since most of the classes have tools to overcome these obstacles: armor bypass skills and different damage types but physical.

The point of this topic is that IB doesn't have anything like that. Even it's "mirror", the BG have armor bypass skill! IB have a flat armor debuff, but since armor values increased dramatically with new sets, it's not enough anymore. AGAIN, NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS ISSUE, hence no need to talk about nerfing anything.

(This problem even recognized by the devs for Slayers recently, as Invader set has an armor bypass proc... so only the IB remains at the rock bottom.)

For example, the total of the conqueror set armor value is 3,305 for a tank and 2,200 for an mdps, while for example the Bloodlord set has 3,744 for a tank and 2,429 for an mdps. That's a flat 12-13% increase which means the IB does 12-13% less damage in average, while other classes are equally suffering, but have some kind of tool to overcome this. Also with these increases, most of the times the IB can't debuff the armor values below the cap anymore.

As I suggested in my 1st post, the possible solutions for this problem:
- increase the armor debuff value of the IB armor debuff skill or make it % based
- add an armor bypass element to one of the IB's skill, similarly as it's mirror the BG have it
- turn some of the IB's physical damage to corporeal (a good idea was that the dot part of heavy blow could be corporeal instead of physical)

If nothing changes the IB will get another 4-5% worse again when the new armor sets are coming out, as soon even medium armor classes will reach the armor cap and the IB won't be able to scratch them either.

[adamthelc]

This thread quickly turned into discussion about armor pots, armor talis and even healers... what the heck, it was not my intention by any means, since most of the classes have tools to overcome these obstacles: armor bypass skills and different damage types but physical.

The point of this topic is that IB doesn't have anything like that. Even it's "mirror", the BG have armor bypass skill! IB have a flat armor debuff, but since armor values increased dramatically with new sets, it's not enough anymore. AGAIN, NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS ISSUE, hence no need to talk about nerfing anything.

(This problem even recognized by the devs for Slayers recently, as Invader set has an armor bypass proc... so only the IB remains at the rock bottom.)

For example, the total of the conqueror set armor value is 3,305 for a tank and 2,200 for an mdps, while for example the Bloodlord set has 3,744 for a tank and 2,429 for an mdps. That's a flat 12-13% increase which means the IB does 12-13% less damage in average, while other classes are equally suffering, but have some kind of tool to overcome this. Also with these increases, most of the times the IB can't debuff the armor values below the cap anymore.

As I suggested in my 1st post, the possible solutions for this problem:
- increase the armor debuff value of the IB armor debuff skill or make it % based
- add an armor bypass element to one of the IB's skill, similarly as it's mirror the BG have it
- turn some of the IB's physical damage to corporeal (a good idea was that the dot part of heavy blow could be corporeal instead of physical)

If nothing changes the IB will get another 4-5% worse again when the new armor sets are coming out, as soon even medium armor classes will reach the armor cap and the IB won't be able to scratch them either.

You would be better served if you focused on your suggestions that would benefit only the IB. Buffs that could help all of order, because of the problem you have with IB damage arent going to go over very well.

Slayer has always benefited from armor debuffs and higher WS. A bonus that gives that isnt recognition of a problem with slayer damage, it's just a good set bonus. If anything the opposite is true. Slayers used to have an epic weapon with an armor debuff on live. That weapon doesnt exist here.

I could agree that armor values are high, but you are arguing your point from to narrow a perspective. You should argue armor values in general are too high and it effects both sides. Maybe a tank on order and a tank on destro could get an AoE armor debuff.

If it's an ability it wouldnt be quite as good as the tactic that RP/zealot provide, but it still would take a little away from their already small offensive niche.

[oaliaen]

armor debuff coming to ranged classes in bloodlord set. Fact is, ppl complain about mellee and forget about ranged being buffed all the time on the shadows .

[Wdova]

This thread quickly turned into discussion about armor pots, armor talis and even healers... what the heck, it was not my intention by any means, since most of the classes have tools to overcome these obstacles: armor bypass skills and different damage types but physical.

The point of this topic is that IB doesn't have anything like that. Even it's "mirror", the BG have armor bypass skill! IB have a flat armor debuff, but since armor values increased dramatically with new sets, it's not enough anymore. AGAIN, NO OTHER CLASS HAS THIS ISSUE, hence no need to talk about nerfing anything.

(This problem even recognized by the devs for Slayers recently, as Invader set has an armor bypass proc... so only the IB remains at the rock bottom.)

For example, the total of the conqueror set armor value is 3,305 for a tank and 2,200 for an mdps, while for example the Bloodlord set has 3,744 for a tank and 2,429 for an mdps. That's a flat 12-13% increase which means the IB does 12-13% less damage in average, while other classes are equally suffering, but have some kind of tool to overcome this. Also with these increases, most of the times the IB can't debuff the armor values below the cap anymore.

As I suggested in my 1st post, the possible solutions for this problem:
- increase the armor debuff value of the IB armor debuff skill or make it % based
- add an armor bypass element to one of the IB's skill, similarly as it's mirror the BG have it
- turn some of the IB's physical damage to corporeal (a good idea was that the dot part of heavy blow could be corporeal instead of physical)

If nothing changes the IB will get another 4-5% worse again when the new armor sets are coming out, as soon even medium armor classes will reach the armor cap and the IB won't be able to scratch them either.

I dont know what to say. I main order so it would look wierd if I strongly disagree with You.

IB can double debuff armor from M1 and Stone breaker. Basic Stonebreaker Value is 800 armor debuff before any mastery point investment and around 1100-1200 by grabbing Great axe mastery right? Thats not bad at all. That means You can almost strip naked medium armor in Bloodlord to armor value of 200-300(if they not use armor pot or armor buff)

IB already have up to 100% armor ignore skill Rune-Etched Axe which is also AOE. Lets work with that and increase its tooltip dmg and/or reduce its cooldown(now 10s)

Making some attacks corporal insted of physical can benefit IB against tanks and high armor stacked SHs, Marauders or armor stacked Doks, but criple your dmg against healers, WEs, rSHs,Sorcs,non deftard Maguses who have higher mitigation from rezistance than from armor. Since You cannot debuf corp rezistance You gonna endup dealing less dmg with corp dmg than with physical one.

Slayer and Choppa are dependant on any other classes armor debuffs. Just reminder: on live Warlord gear had 1400 or 1500 armor debuff proc witch was best possible proc for those 2 classes.

[Sulorie]

Yeah, so much fun to have zero armor after debuff on some classes. Maybe play in a team and stop trying to kill targets solo. There are plenty ways to reduce armor mitigation.

You're just wrong.
Reducing armor by 800-900 only counters the potion effect. Most of the time it won't put them below max damage reduction because people stack it over the hardcap specifically to counter armor reduction abilities.

Only healers and tanks tend to stack armor, no dps classes, if they want to deal damage.
Armor debuffs go a lot higher than 800-900 and additionally you have moral armor debuffs and weapons skill.