To give rdps CC before tanks should have been questionable

[Tesq]

@bozzax Sadly those were wrote on old bioware forum. I didn't have so much hope for a war private server so i didn't make any screen.

@Aurulian I am for the idea that before any single classes fix, we should take care of a CC x realm fix; make any realm tank's have the correct ammount of cc and have any realm have the same number cc x side.

- Tank CC fix x side (every realm must have at least 1 of every type of CC)

Chosen: stag(4 sec) + base AOE KB
kobs: stag(4sec) + ST interrupt


SM: Base aoe KB + silence + immunity( 4sec) + moral AOE KB
BO: immunity(4sec) + Moral root ( 5 secods) +ST interrupt


IB: aoe snare + super KD(*) + Moral root( 5 secods)
BG: Silence+ aoe snare + super KB(*) + Moral-aoe kb


This is what i like to see or at last something similar. Atm most of best cc are on kobs: stag, moral root, St interrupt and his ST snare can became aoe 3 max target. This cc fix will give more cc the less you party buff the group. Also for me super punt from chosen /kobs must go

The whole matter of doing more damage vs having more cc utility can be solve just by better put on classes path the apporpriate skills. So that every classes have different tool but cannot have it all togheter, so that you can either go for a more dps build or reduces dps and gain more cc.
But what it matter firstly is realm vs realm balance, and that it cannot be achived if order have 2 rKD destru 0 and order have the only moral root of the game. This is connect directly to this thread: why war dev gave to a ranged classes a rKD? they screw the whole competence x classes division. If not both "realm" and i repeat "realm" ( so i talk of no perfect classes mirror) have the same stuff game cannot be balanced. But this make plenty of different classes to have each unique
Also about sm/bo the first things would be fix their buff proc chance make the incipit"

all your attacks have 25% chance to ----->every time "you are" attacked there is 25% chance to.....

actually make both bo/SM buff a lot better( obiusly a X seconds proc limit need to be put for the sake of sm-absorb and bo-wouds increase to not exploit this change). This will definettly make their role better, also united with the cc patch you can pretty have any combination of tank inside partys. Cos similar but different results can be achived with out the need to always bring 1x chosen /KOBS inside partys

EDIT: i fixed something it was in the wrong place.

[noisestorm]

Wondering who and especially why my lil paint project from yesterday got removed :<

Statement still true: Tesq knows balance . . . NAWT

He could use some message in his Sig that signals people to question his every post.
Dis Dude is shitting rainbows all day long

[Azarael]

I dunno who removed that post, but let's actually discuss the topic instead of targeting Tesq.

[noisestorm]

I am seriously afraid that people listen or even believe some of his fairy tales. It's not about targeting, it is about his spreading of some completeley biased and subjective points in literally every post made, which i simply cannot leave uncommented, as I fear that some newbies or whatever may further spread some of that stuff. In pretty much every topic it derails to 'nerf order' corner.

I am still the opinion that there is actually nothing left to discuss regarding the Title of the Topic itself.
Many people posted already pretty much the truth. But i can list a few points _again_

* Melee DPS get their charge at rank10 already. Without any slow,root or kb every ranged class would simply get raped my melee trains.
* Every tank has a slow at earlier stages already, with a lower cooldown than every ranged class (if they even have a slow at all)
* Root/Slow normally would also be breakable by Juggernaut, which currently doesnt work though. So Tanks even got a pretty early counter measure to being CCd by ranged. I also consider lvl 18 for mDPS version of Juggernaut as quite early, since the game never was meant to be stuck at lvl 12
* Casters and Rangers normally would also suffer form Setback, which applies to pretty much every spell, making it even harder to be ANY useful in early stages, when they dont have a lot of instant casts or spells to counteract with the interupts, while Melees have NO drawback like that.

Wanna hear more reasons why its okay the way it is?
Sure you can talk about the CCs not being perfectly split along the classes, but overall in terms of Group dynamics it evens out pretty much.

[Bozzax]

@noise
It is getting old I have a suggestion. Try add something of value instead

@Tesq
Honestly I think all those changes are to much in one go. This is where mythic/EA always failed. You need to do one thing at a time instead of redoing everything and just hope it works out. A more sensible approach would be to do ONE change and limit it to one class (example BO/SM)

1. Tinker a bit with bellows/enchants and try one or more of a-d
a. Make on or two Enchants affect group as well instead of self?
b. change greenest trigger to incoming attack (regardless of block or parry etc)?
c. drop AP costs to 0?
d. Make an enchant or bellow linger 2-4 seconds?
2. Add a ST punt
3. Drop KD from 13 to 10 like all other tanks

Change one thing test it discard it or make it permanent

[noisestorm]

@noise
It is getting old I have a suggestion you that you try add something of value instead

@Tesq
Honestly I think all those changes are to much in one go. This is where mythic/EA always failed. You need to do one thing at a time instead of redoing everything and just hope it works out. A more sensible approach would be to do ONE change and limit it to one class (example BO/SM)

1. Tinker a bit with bellows/enchants and try one or more of a-d
a. Make on or two Enchants affect group as well instead of self?
b. change greenest trigger to incoming attack (regardless of block or parry etc)?
c. drop AP costs to 0?
d. Make an enchant or bellow linger 2-4 seconds?
2. Add a ST punt
3. Drop KD from 13 to 10 like all other tanks

Change one thing test it discard it or make it permanent

#SMthread

IF the time comes to debate about Class balance, then we can make topics about it. I see no point in discussing about the old times of a half bugged game from 5 years ago. We already heard that Marauder and Slayer skills get their appropriate Ailments/Curse/Hex whatever tag instead of damaging. Surely there is similar stuff upon other classes. and when we see how it all plays out THEN we can start about balancing. Dunno why people do not understand the futility of that talk right now

[Bozzax]

@noise
It is getting old I have a suggestion you that you try add something of value instead

@Tesq
Honestly I think all those changes are to much in one go. This is where mythic/EA always failed. You need to do one thing at a time instead of redoing everything and just hope it works out. A more sensible approach would be to do ONE change and limit it to one class (example BO/SM)

1. Tinker a bit with bellows/enchants and try one or more of a-d
a. Make on or two Enchants affect group as well instead of self?
b. change greenest trigger to incoming attack (regardless of block or parry etc)?
c. drop AP costs to 0?
d. Make an enchant or bellow linger 2-4 seconds?
2. Add a ST punt
3. Drop KD from 13 to 10 like all other tanks

Change one thing test it discard it or make it permanent

#SMthread

IF the time comes to debate about Class balance, then we can make topics about it. I see no point in discussing about the old times of a half bugged game from 5 years ago. We already heard that Marauder and Slayer skills get their appropriate Ailments/Curse/Hex whatever tag instead of damaging. Surely there is similar stuff upon other classes. and when we see how it all plays out THEN we can start about balancing. Dunno why people do not understand the futility of that talk right now

Maybe you should stop moderating as well? The whole I know better then Tesq also gets a bit "self proclaimed". I get it you disagree but Tesq has been writing hard to read posts in WAR for many years and hit RR100 early. He deserves much more respect then you show him.

[noisestorm]

The problem is people talking about stuff that they just know from hearsay and never actually played themselves to have any fundamental knowledge or halfway subjective point to even argue about a matter. I am indeed a selfproclaimed disagree'er to pretty much every of such posts. Its not only him, but he is simply the one posting the most stuff where i just have to disagree. Just because he hit rr100 early means exactly nothing. Every random Pug/Zerg bob could reach rr100 if he just invests enough time into his one toon.

[Azarael]

I think that we can actually analyse classes design-wise even from our current perspective, because some of the errors are just that glaring.

Hence, I'd say the following are issues with SM:

- Class buff costs in general - 55 AP for casting a class buff serves no purpose on any of the classes, not just SM/BO

- Underperforming abilities:

Gusting Wind (indiscriminate knockback just ends up spreading root/KB immunity. I actually added something on my test server to see if it would work, which was to make GW punt the SM to their defensive target if they were within 100ft.)
Phoenix's Wing (Khaine 10 dealing physical frontal AoE with only a PvE hate effect and requiring target at 5ft... it speaks for itself)
Redirected Force (Vaul 5, same **** as above - PvE-only additional effect in a PvP game)
Intimidating Blow (-100 Morale doesn't exactly strike me as very useful)
Heaven's Blade - this being a single-target proc debuff is rather underwhelming on the group utility front
Sapping Strike - another ability nobody cared for that actually was due to be changed on the PTS to a straight AP-steal

- Underperforming tactics:

Forceful Shock (doesn't match thematically with Blurring Shock at all and so is not worth blowing a tactic slot on)

- The mechanic is terribly designed. It's a debuff, limiting what you can do at any given time. It's even more of a joke that Sudden Shift exists - if the designers had to add a no cost, instant cast, GCD-ignoring ability with a 5s CD which advances your stance within the mechanic, what exactly is the point of the mechanic?

- Additionally to this, the mechanic is used as an excuse to provide terrible durations to some buffs, most obviously Dragon's Talon (4s) and Eagle's Flight (5s).

Would be interested to know where people feel I'm off-base.

--------------------------

Edit regarding any changes in the upcoming code:

The only changes are the Chosen/Knight aura handling (previously documented) and both Debilitate and Inevitable Doom counting as Ailments.

[Tesq]

Guys before i read all you write above, cc fix i suggested are the unique cc each classes should have

i would never suggest to remvoe
snare, root, KD, KB, that every tank in game have -.-
i tough that was clear but re-readin what i wrote i think it wasn't

Edit:

@Bozzax you cant balance cc taking in account 1 class or pairing x time, that' why i told balance cc first then handle single class fix so that you can actually have realm vs realm balance first and then a better internal realm balance.

@noise what you wrote of what each classes take at some level is valid as a general statment but rKD that both SW and BW have, they are not possesed by Sorc and Squig because they are not class skill like you said: melee cc remove or tank juggernaut.
They are indeed unique cc assigned to sw/BW destru have none. From a perspective of realm vs realm balance this is wrong, from a perspective of internal balance BW do not need rKD. It's not a BW core skill, it's not a rdps core skill, it's not normal for a dps have an offensive cc unless it need to fill the lack of dps. Which is way ST pull was put on mara/wl , to close the gap with the increase damage meccanic of slayer/choppa ( no comment on the fact that mara is op, it was thx to a bugged tactic)