do we have a balance problem?

[sighy]

also one side having clearly less classes optimized for city, somehow, is not an issue according to some. and the answer is just play slayer bruh. it is both funny and sad. When order winrate was 90% in forts, I was saying that is not a player issue and devs quickly reduced population cap which helped destro a lot, but cities are like 70% 30% for more than a year and we did not even receive answer from devs about their visio, do they think that it's really player issue or balance? or both?

Destro was saying 24 man aoe cap is a bad change long before cities were a thing on this server. Lo and behold it's still a problem... Only the ppl talking about it either left or went through the stages of grief and learned to live with it. Personally i don't see the meta changing drastically until the AoE cap is reverted or one of the ST dps gets hardcore overtuned to the point, where they could outpace healers rezing people, with insta/focussed mind.

[Sundowner]

Hi!

Imho it's indeed a player problem. 90% of the Cities I've done were against order yolo warbands meanwhile on destro side we don't even queue if we don't have a 2-2-2. I've been participating in Cities from start and yes, it's still the same since then. I don't doubt that players know their classes but how to make work synergies without the base setup you need? Create better organised warbands and use vocals, you'll win more.
Example : in last 2 cities, order had 3-4 tanks, 2-4 healers and rest was rdps, mainly SW/Engie... not performing well in City specially when it's 4 SW + 6 Engie + 2 BW, meanwhile we were in a 2-2-2...

Btw, the 10% remaining were nightmares for us destro : order 2-2-2 warbands are really strong!

Yeah sure bro, and the reason that order just do not bothers with even queuing and forming up for city is not caused by the neglection of disbalance for more than a year, when order had few classes suited for city and destro, having better classes for melee ball, was defeating order for months and months which resulted not only gear gap, but player mentality, order just doesn't bother anymore. and, hear me out, it is not because players have inheretly that mentality, that's because neglecting balance issues for a long time led to this.

That's a fair point. So now, how to make order try seriously Cities again? Many changes on classes have been made lately but situation of order warbands in Cities is still the same... no tanks, no healers and a ton of rdps. We don't even see slayers... A slayer ball in City with synced Rampage is still deadly.

Yes, morale dump patch had heavy consequences on gameplay based on it. Couldn't you find some alternatives to it? Mabe they should rollback on this change and make morale bombing great again, why not if it can make order community come back into fights!

Idk, there is no straightforward and fast solution to this. I hope devs figure our what to do.

[kmark101]

TUP/Phalanx alliance still has circa 96% winrate from playing around 70-90 Order city instances. Most of those before Destro morales were nerfed. We lost to LOB/Exodus/Mont once (never bring 2 WHs to a city lol and only 1 RP), and maybe 2+ losses to FMJ (including absurd 300-100 kill advantage but losing stage 3 pve race, is loss, even if we had some /5 ppl in ranks because keeping full guild/alliance roster is nigh impossible on Order). Maybe some other loss I forgot about.

I have most recorded, it's just pretty boring to watch playing a Slayer spam Flurry with Rampage up or spamming WL Slashing Blade for 10000 times.

then again maybe we are just dirty xrealmers trying to distort real Order guild winrate statistics.

Fenryls /5 groups used for sure to have very high winrates back in spring when still running and caring to city log, same with other 6man alliances of guilds merging their meleetrains for cities.

Your win rate would be heavily decrease if you would face 2-3 mSH in their current iteration... trust me on this, there is no counterplay against them and they are doing wicked amounts of damage, interrupts and utilities (especially when they are champ in stage 3... then its kinda comical to watch as they one round order players one after another, without any help of any other class).

[kmark101]

What best guilds, you mean Rolgrom running with AM's that can't outheal SM or Slayers for the last what, 2-3 cities in a row?

That AM can't outheal anything because its instantly deleted by 2 SH, regardless of guards, detaunts, postitions or what not. On the other hand, shamans just continue to run away in complete safety it's extremely frustrating when one side has no tools to deal with the other side's tools on multiple levels.

You know that mSH doing 5k+ burst on any SnB tanks regardless of their tankyness? I have my own screenshot of an mSH 5,4k burst on my 80+ decked out SnB knight in a matter of few seconds... which order class can do that to a deftard chosen?

[Rapzel]

so guys we have now filled nearly 40 sites with more or less (more less than all) helpful assumptions about is ORDER right now in a worse situation vs DESTRO. Looks like we hit here a sensitive subject to some people.

My expectations to this discussion was not to find a final answer to the question is and when yes why is ORDER now in a worser shape. But to keep a discussion up about balance even when the forum is wildy biased about own class and realm. To make it clear -DESTRO had have the same right accordingly to forts.

To take City's in compare for balance is needed and important. First of all its a WB vs WB instanced environment. As by Devs declared we dont play a solo game. So Open pvp and even Sc´s are not meaningful. Only in City's we can nearly see all classes of each realm fighting each other. Synergies between classes and ability's can be seen here preferably and why some classes are not fit the actual WB meta.

To bring my post to a end i post the last city's i was in. Nearly anything is discussable and based on own point of view. Results not. So to show it was not just a single city to DESTRO pride time with 100% win rate on 19.12 i continued to collect (i know i missed one or two).
19.12.2020

20.12.2020

21.12.2020

23.12.2020


maybe some one can provide the city 22nd of december?

so if i dont miscounted 53 instances
Desto won 41 - 77% win
Order won 12 - 23% win

If we stay with the argument "OrDeR iS jUsT To StUpId tO GrOuP uP" and "CaNt PlAy In GrOuPs" we should go back to the old Fort theard (died because no one interested in anymore after we have now every day a Altdorf in EU primetime), bring old Forts back and discuss why DESTRO is not able to siege the forts. Maybe its also just a player problem and not a ingame/balance problem.
Not sure if it is possible in this environment to discuss actual balance situation. If not i just continue to collect city's like forts got collected to show actual unbalance in realms (mind you for both sides)

https://imgur.com/o9S7WC6

Absolutions "win" against Bene.

LaSt PvE StaGE iS rEaLLy inDiCaTIvE oF rEaLm baLAnCe AnD ShOUlD bE UsEd fOR BaLAnCE.

Old fort thread died because people stopped updating forts, only the OP did it and that person quit the game or something, just like city stats stopped being recorded after 2 weeks. Destro still has some where around 50% win rate on attacks, while order is over 90%, but it's "balanced". If Order found this to be a important indicator of balance they would obviously keep recording, but they did not.

The issues that keep on being reiterated (or should I say regurgitated?) have been proven by the top guilds to be false, there have been all kinds of weird strange conspiracy theories that have been proved to not be true at all (remember when GTDC stripped you of defenses and apparently one shot SnB tanks? Turned out to not be true). Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

So the question is, should we balance for the top players or the bottom players?

[Osprey39]

why should something get buffed because its perceived to be bad in city? the game doesn't actually revolve around shitty according to what the gms/devs want. id rather just see city scrapped and royals added to rvr instead.

I mean I'm relatively new here (been playing 2 or 3 weeks) but having read through 9 pages of this thread to where you posted this, I'm inclined to agree. It seems like even the winning side doesn't actually like city. Again, I've never done one but it seems like people are only doing it for gear and that is bad design in and of itself because eventually you get all the gear and then what?

[Ramlaen]

Absolutions "win" against Bene.

LaSt PvE StaGE iS rEaLLy inDiCaTIvE oF rEaLm baLAnCe AnD ShOUlD bE UsEd fOR BaLAnCE.

Old fort thread died because people stopped updating forts, only the OP did it and that person quit the game or something, just like city stats stopped being recorded after 2 weeks. Destro still has some where around 50% win rate on attacks, while order is over 90%, but it's "balanced". If Order found this to be a important indicator of balance they would obviously keep recording, but they did not.

The issues that keep on being reiterated (or should I say regurgitated?) have been proven by the top guilds to be false, there have been all kinds of weird strange conspiracy theories that have been proved to not be true at all (remember when GTDC stripped you of defenses and apparently one shot SnB tanks? Turned out to not be true). Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

So the question is, should we balance for the top players or the bottom players?

City stats are still being recorded, the only timezone (NA, EU, RU, AU) where Destro is sub 60% win rate is NA. The win rate has started trending apart again post SH buff.

[Sponn]

so guys we have now filled nearly 40 sites with more or less (more less than all) helpful assumptions about is ORDER right now in a worse situation vs DESTRO. Looks like we hit here a sensitive subject to some people.

My expectations to this discussion was not to find a final answer to the question is and when yes why is ORDER now in a worser shape. But to keep a discussion up about balance even when the forum is wildy biased about own class and realm. To make it clear -DESTRO had have the same right accordingly to forts.

To take City's in compare for balance is needed and important. First of all its a WB vs WB instanced environment. As by Devs declared we dont play a solo game. So Open pvp and even Sc´s are not meaningful. Only in City's we can nearly see all classes of each realm fighting each other. Synergies between classes and ability's can be seen here preferably and why some classes are not fit the actual WB meta.

To bring my post to a end i post the last city's i was in. Nearly anything is discussable and based on own point of view. Results not. So to show it was not just a single city to DESTRO pride time with 100% win rate on 19.12 i continued to collect (i know i missed one or two).
19.12.2020

20.12.2020

21.12.2020

23.12.2020


maybe some one can provide the city 22nd of december?

so if i dont miscounted 53 instances
Desto won 41 - 77% win
Order won 12 - 23% win

If we stay with the argument "OrDeR iS jUsT To StUpId tO GrOuP uP" and "CaNt PlAy In GrOuPs" we should go back to the old Fort theard (died because no one interested in anymore after we have now every day a Altdorf in EU primetime), bring old Forts back and discuss why DESTRO is not able to siege the forts. Maybe its also just a player problem and not a ingame/balance problem.
Not sure if it is possible in this environment to discuss actual balance situation. If not i just continue to collect city's like forts got collected to show actual unbalance in realms (mind you for both sides)

https://imgur.com/o9S7WC6

Absolutions "win" against Bene.

LaSt PvE StaGE iS rEaLLy inDiCaTIvE oF rEaLm baLAnCe AnD ShOUlD bE UsEd fOR BaLAnCE.

Old fort thread died because people stopped updating forts, only the OP did it and that person quit the game or something, just like city stats stopped being recorded after 2 weeks. Destro still has some where around 50% win rate on attacks, while order is over 90%, but it's "balanced". If Order found this to be a important indicator of balance they would obviously keep recording, but they did not.

The issues that keep on being reiterated (or should I say regurgitated?) have been proven by the top guilds to be false, there have been all kinds of weird strange conspiracy theories that have been proved to not be true at all (remember when GTDC stripped you of defenses and apparently one shot SnB tanks? Turned out to not be true). Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

So the question is, should we balance for the top players or the bottom players?

This is why we can't have nice things. Disingenuous destro complain about fort, start recording, complain for changes and changes get made. Then omg the data is gone! Where did it go? The main OP decided to stop recording and literally all the 1000 destro complaining on the forums couldnt help take a screenshot? Bullshit. It stopped because destro started winning. The same reason why Destro ignores city data when it works against their narrative.


Super lame. Same excuses every time. If Destro does good or Order does bad it is a "learn2play issue zomg let me flame you". But if Destro does bad or Order does good it is a "Zomg this balance in this game broken, Order OP. I am the best player and doing nothing wrong so it is the games fault."

Disgusting.

[knick]

Spoiler:

so guys we have now filled nearly 40 sites with more or less (more less than all) helpful assumptions about is ORDER right now in a worse situation vs DESTRO. Looks like we hit here a sensitive subject to some people.

My expectations to this discussion was not to find a final answer to the question is and when yes why is ORDER now in a worser shape. But to keep a discussion up about balance even when the forum is wildy biased about own class and realm. To make it clear -DESTRO had have the same right accordingly to forts.

To take City's in compare for balance is needed and important. First of all its a WB vs WB instanced environment. As by Devs declared we dont play a solo game. So Open pvp and even Sc´s are not meaningful. Only in City's we can nearly see all classes of each realm fighting each other. Synergies between classes and ability's can be seen here preferably and why some classes are not fit the actual WB meta.

To bring my post to a end i post the last city's i was in. Nearly anything is discussable and based on own point of view. Results not. So to show it was not just a single city to DESTRO pride time with 100% win rate on 19.12 i continued to collect (i know i missed one or two).
19.12.2020

20.12.2020

21.12.2020

23.12.2020


maybe some one can provide the city 22nd of december?

so if i dont miscounted 53 instances
Desto won 41 - 77% win
Order won 12 - 23% win

If we stay with the argument "OrDeR iS jUsT To StUpId tO GrOuP uP" and "CaNt PlAy In GrOuPs" we should go back to the old Fort theard (died because no one interested in anymore after we have now every day a Altdorf in EU primetime), bring old Forts back and discuss why DESTRO is not able to siege the forts. Maybe its also just a player problem and not a ingame/balance problem.
Not sure if it is possible in this environment to discuss actual balance situation. If not i just continue to collect city's like forts got collected to show actual unbalance in realms (mind you for both sides)

https://imgur.com/o9S7WC6

Absolutions "win" against Bene.

LaSt PvE StaGE iS rEaLLy inDiCaTIvE oF rEaLm baLAnCe AnD ShOUlD bE UsEd fOR BaLAnCE.

Old fort thread died because people stopped updating forts, only the OP did it and that person quit the game or something, just like city stats stopped being recorded after 2 weeks. Destro still has some where around 50% win rate on attacks, while order is over 90%, but it's "balanced". If Order found this to be a important indicator of balance they would obviously keep recording, but they did not.

The issues that keep on being reiterated (or should I say regurgitated?) have been proven by the top guilds to be false, there have been all kinds of weird strange conspiracy theories that have been proved to not be true at all (remember when GTDC stripped you of defenses and apparently one shot SnB tanks? Turned out to not be true). Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

So the question is, should we balance for the top players or the bottom players?

The thread died because nobody was any longer interested in. Order not from page one and destro since we see a Altdorf every day. Order win rate in forts is just a relict of old patches between engineer buff and fort changes. I didn't played a single fort order pushed in EU primetime since 7 or 8 weeks? So %win rate can't change. For defense it's another talk. Its much easier to defend than to attack. That's why changes where made.

Several of the "top" WB leaders and players have explicitly said that Order has access to stronger wb comps and careers, where equal players of skill and to a certain degree gear/renown Order will come out on top.

If this would be true we wouldn't see a imbalance of 77%vs23% winrate and 41 pages filled about balance topic.
On one hand we have your statement. On another the the winrate on numbers.

Maybe order is on top with stronger set-up but only if you give 110% while the destro kit can be effective at 75%? What if destro is more player friendly easyer to master? What if a average order player need 100 ingame hours to master his class and 200 to be better as a average destro player while a destro player can be as good with 75 in game hours. What if your class forgive a mistake you would die in your mirror class? This makes a huge difference in balance. Just a thought...
A example to this(and I don't want to start a class discussion here) is Shammy run and detaunt tactic. Its a tactic you just put in and it's done. You don't have to think about it. Its a tactic making life easyer. Just saying...

[mubbl]

I guess nge and tup/phalanx are just cheating (=

Spoiler:

What best guilds, you mean Rolgrom running with AM's that can't outheal SM or Slayers for the last what, 2-3 cities in a row?

That AM can't outheal anything because its instantly deleted by 2 SH, regardless of guards, detaunts, postitions or what not. On the other hand, shamans just continue to run away in complete safety it's extremely frustrating when one side has no tools to deal with the other side's tools on multiple levels.

You know that mSH doing 5k+ burst on any SnB tanks regardless of their tankyness? I have my own screenshot of an mSH 5,4k burst on my 80+ decked out SnB knight in a matter of few seconds... which order class can do that to a deftard chosen?

Pic or not happend

Or atleast define "a few" a bit more, like you did it with your dmg number.