do we have a balance problem?

[lordmrok]

Knick i didnt see any post from order about bad balance when they nerfed mara while order pushed for ic several times a day grinding all destro in RVR

[Korhill]

Knick i didnt see any post from order about bad balance when they nerfed mara while order pushed for ic several times a day grinding all destro in RVR

Which Marauder nerf? They buffed ST and AOE damage and reverted the AOE damage buff again because it was to much in monstro stance. The ST damage buff stayed or?

[Earthcake]

Real problem may not be in city, but in orvr.

Destro got very, very low risk, high reward classes : goblins. WL used to keep them in check but they got nerfed several times in a row, to the point they can t do that anymore.

So goblins (and WEs) hunt every order in the zones knowing they will win more than they lose at the end of the day. This makes many order players salty, so they quit (either go destro or quit the game whatsoever).
I know u gonna try to be a smartass and say "easy solution, just group up noobs!", except many ppl aren t playing 24/7, and u cannot choose when keep fights will happen, so many times, u log in, there s a fight in progress, most ppl are alrdy there, u d like to join, but can t since u r alone(especially now that BO portals are not functionals anymore).

Order alrdy got lower population to begin with, but this lead to order guilds being smaller and smaller.

Many of u agree that good order wb > good destro wb.
That s prolly true, but how are u gonna form a good wb when ur guild can only field a 6 men ? Good luck getting 18 good players on /5.

We used to win most of our cities order side some time ago, but we could always field at least 18ppl, most of the time 24.
Now that we can at best get a 12men, we lose every city.

[knick]

Spoiler:

The 77 Vs 23
Read prior quotes, there's more but the search function does not work atm on the forums.
I'll ask you this question again, should we balance the game on what the best players can do, or should we balance for the people that play solo for 2 hrs on the weekend? If one side is stronger at 110% but not at 75% does that mean that the game is broken? And there's the core issue that needs to be discussed, not if mSH is OP or Slayer is OP, even though both maybe needs to be tuned down.

If we would play a game where you just play 1vs1 or small group matches the answer is yes - you have to balance the game around the class itself and what a good player can do with it. In Warhammer with 12 classes each side and big scale pvp is the answer no. Its team based game and a 24 Man wb can only as good as the weakest part.
What is the benefit for a realm to have the strongest class ingame but nobody can handle. Or you need to train every day to implement you best class in your wb because it is to complex.

Example to this is again Shammy and RP. As Shammy you have Auto detaunt by tactic. As RP you need experience when is the Right Moment to detaunt your enemy's. Put it in your rotation and refresh it. See it's by far more challenging than just put a tactic in. Its need time and experience to master it.
I would guess 80-85% are casual gamer. If you have "easyer" classes to master and easyer to implement in wb we have a imbalance. If a destro player who gives 75% can be as good as a order player who need 110% we have a imbalance.

And a last sentence to class balance itself. Mythic Entertainment as developer balanced the game over years even before the game got released. Classes and their strength and weaknesses are very fragile and defined by their abilitys. We and the dev team should watch out by giving abilitys careless from order to destro and other way around.

Going from bot to top.

Mythic doesn't exist anymore, and haven't had any influence over this server what so ever. Whatever mythic has to do with balance is irrelevant. Are we going to bring up how climax started developing WAR in 2002 as well and how they tried to balance the game as well?
Things change, a lot of this game is better now than it ever was on live. And tbh "mythic" released renown rank 100 and hidden levels as a pay to win expansion for the game, that was not balanced.

No, I'll reiterate here for you.
If bad Order pug WB plays against bad WB, Destro win. If good order WB plays against good Destro WB, Order wins. Who should we balance the game for?
Bad people who struggle with the fundamentals of the game such as position, keeping HoTs timed, guard swaps and assisting or should we balance the game for the players that have figured that out?
Some guilds/alliances believe it or not win on both factions.

First of all have you tried playing RP with 3 tactics? Shaman gives up a tactic slot for the detaunt, and it needs to procc, dwarf armor tactic is probably a better damage mitigation in the long run than auto detaunt.
Second of all why are you even trying to compare RP and Shaman? They have very little in common and gives you zero credibility. Are we going to compare Black Orc and KotBS because they both have guard?
So the reason why Order loses city is because they don't have access to auto-detaunt, is that what you're trying to say? It's highly unclear what you're trying to convey.

The issue is that someone will train every day to become the best, so if we start balancing the game around the casuals this will have greater effects on the highest tier of game play as well as the lowest tier of gameplay. Going from the top down, balance will instead hopefully trickle down.

You dont get the point here. Mythic balanced and designed all classes over years. There was a reason to give abilitys to one class and some abilitys to other classes. All i said is that we actual shifting abilitys between realms without thinking about there original design and why some classes have no access to some abilitys.
I´m not saying game is worse than on live but also not better in all aspects.
This Order pug vs destro wb - destro win and build order wb vs destro -order win is nothing than a personal meaning of you. there are so many aspects why you win or lose a fight. just saying order loose because pug is simply wrong. I play city's by myself only on build and actual meta wb´s and this dosent mean i win all my citys

Rp vs Shammy was just an example as i said. You can also say Shammy vs class XY. If you dont see the benefit of auto detaunt i cant help you. You dont need a global cd for it and dont need to refresh it all 5 sec. I dont say Order loose because of auto detaunt. I clearly said it makes your life easier.

Knick i didnt see any post from order about bad balance when they nerfed mara while order pushed for ic several times a day grinding all destro in RVR

What kind of excuse is this? Is it my job to post for you if you think something gone wrong? If you think Mara debuff was a fault make a post about it...

[emiliorv]

Knick i didnt see any post from order about bad balance when they nerfed mara while order pushed for ic several times a day grinding all destro in RVR

Which Marauder nerf? They buffed ST and AOE damage and reverted the AOE damage buff again because it was to much in monstro stance. The ST damage buff stayed or?

Mmm no. Marauder got morale drain nerfed (totally gone) and in exchange his dmg got buffed. After some salty tears finally his dmg got nerfed but his morale drain remained nerfed. So overall its a Nerf.

[Rapzel]

Spoiler:

If we would play a game where you just play 1vs1 or small group matches the answer is yes - you have to balance the game around the class itself and what a good player can do with it. In Warhammer with 12 classes each side and big scale pvp is the answer no. Its team based game and a 24 Man wb can only as good as the weakest part.
What is the benefit for a realm to have the strongest class ingame but nobody can handle. Or you need to train every day to implement you best class in your wb because it is to complex.



Example to this is again Shammy and RP. As Shammy you have Auto detaunt by tactic. As RP you need experience when is the Right Moment to detaunt your enemy's. Put it in your rotation and refresh it. See it's by far more challenging than just put a tactic in. Its need time and experience to master it.
I would guess 80-85% are casual gamer. If you have "easyer" classes to master and easyer to implement in wb we have a imbalance. If a destro player who gives 75% can be as good as a order player who need 110% we have a imbalance.
And a last sentence to class balance itself. Mythic Entertainment as developer balanced the game over years even before the game got released. Classes and their strength and weaknesses are very fragile and defined by their abilitys. We and the dev team should watch out by giving abilitys careless from order to destro and other way around.

Going from bot to top.

Mythic doesn't exist anymore, and haven't had any influence over this server what so ever. Whatever mythic has to do with balance is irrelevant. Are we going to bring up how climax started developing WAR in 2002 as well and how they tried to balance the game as well?
Things change, a lot of this game is better now than it ever was on live. And tbh "mythic" released renown rank 100 and hidden levels as a pay to win expansion for the game, that was not balanced.

No, I'll reiterate here for you.
If bad Order pug WB plays against bad WB, Destro win. If good order WB plays against good Destro WB, Order wins. Who should we balance the game for?
Bad people who struggle with the fundamentals of the game such as position, keeping HoTs timed, guard swaps and assisting or should we balance the game for the players that have figured that out?
Some guilds/alliances believe it or not win on both factions.

First of all have you tried playing RP with 3 tactics? Shaman gives up a tactic slot for the detaunt, and it needs to procc, dwarf armor tactic is probably a better damage mitigation in the long run than auto detaunt.
Second of all why are you even trying to compare RP and Shaman? They have very little in common and gives you zero credibility. Are we going to compare Black Orc and KotBS because they both have guard?
So the reason why Order loses city is because they don't have access to auto-detaunt, is that what you're trying to say? It's highly unclear what you're trying to convey.

The issue is that someone will train every day to become the best, so if we start balancing the game around the casuals this will have greater effects on the highest tier of game play as well as the lowest tier of gameplay. Going from the top down, balance will instead hopefully trickle down.

You dont get the point here. Mythic balanced and designed all classes over years. There was a reason to give abilitys to one class and some abilitys to other classes. All i said is that we actual shifting abilitys between realms without thinking about there original design and why some classes have no access to some abilitys.
I´m not saying game is worse than on live but also not better in all aspects.
This Order pug vs destro wb - destro win and build order wb vs destro -order win is nothing than a personal meaning of you. there are so many aspects why you win or lose a fight. just saying order loose because pug is simply wrong. I play city's by myself only on build and actual meta wb´s and this dosent mean i win all my citys

Mythics balance was atrocious, people were 2-3 shotting people with BiS on certain careers, shaman and AM BiS was like taking another healer with two gear sets down. Ravage spam for 1500 dmg, BW wiping 24 mans on release, the game was a mess, and little was done to balance it, stop trying to be nostalgic about mythic, they had no idea what they were doing at all. The devs here have continued to balance the careers from what was left by mythic, and even though some changes have been more or less successful the factions are way more balanced than live ever was. Just drop this mythic bs.

Personal meaning? What?
I play both sides, mainly order lately, there is no way order should be struggling the way they are with the careers they have access to.
If your super duper magnum meta guild WB lose against Destro, it's because Destro played better than you, not because of auto-detaunt on shaman or whatever you're trying to blame, the same team would best you if you played on Destro and they were on Order, surprise there's better players in this game than you and me.
If people who are skilled and good at this game manage to keep a 90%+ win rate on order (insert double WH meme) is it really an order issue, or is it a player issue? Devs cannot balance player skill.

Rp vs Shammy was just an example as i said. You can also say Shammy vs class XY. If you dont see the benefit of auto detaunt i cant help you. You dont need a global cd for it and dont need to refresh it all 5 sec. I dont say Order loose because of auto detaunt. I clearly said it makes your life easier.

And I pointed out that you lose a tactic slot to use it which is huge for any healer, and what you get is 25% chance on being hit to reduce Inc normal damage from one target by 25%. It's a sacrifice people do to survive, you can't go full glass cannon healer on either side and expect to survive.

[mufinka1234]

buahahaha i see the balance is going in the right direction, keep it up. Destro win city 10-2

[puzzolamistica]

right now the game is disgusting.
Stage 3 is bugged as hell and is not playable on order side if destros have brain and they have it cuz they all quit order to play op classes.
Also marauder aoe kd is out of this world if they us it properly whit morale drop there is no counterplay.

[Charon]

Personal meaning? What?
I play both sides, mainly order lately, there is no way order should be struggling the way they are with the careers they have access to.
If your super duper magnum meta guild WB lose against Destro, it's because Destro played better than you, not because of auto-detaunt on shaman or whatever you're trying to blame, the same team would best you if you played on Destro and they were on Order, surprise there's better players in this game than you and me.
If people who are skilled and good at this game manage to keep a 90%+ win rate on order (insert double WH meme) is it really an order issue, or is it a player issue? Devs cannot balance player skill.

- ok, by following your logic ...all destro players are far superior than order ones....Ok, let it be ....But game is mashinery also in social/human aspect of things, there is some reason why all pro players stacked up at destro side....i dont gonna prejudge why. Howewer, I think its in core interest of players and devs to find a way to balace and spread out, mix this population, just to give the game longer run and make it more fun for us all.

[knick]

19.1220.1221.1223.1225.12

65 instances
Desto won 51 - 78% win
Order won 14 - 22% win

Spoiler:

Going from bot to top.

Mythic doesn't exist anymore, and haven't had any influence over this server what so ever. Whatever mythic has to do with balance is irrelevant. Are we going to bring up how climax started developing WAR in 2002 as well and how they tried to balance the game as well?
Things change, a lot of this game is better now than it ever was on live. And tbh "mythic" released renown rank 100 and hidden levels as a pay to win expansion for the game, that was not balanced.

No, I'll reiterate here for you.
If bad Order pug WB plays against bad WB, Destro win. If good order WB plays against good Destro WB, Order wins. Who should we balance the game for?
Bad people who struggle with the fundamentals of the game such as position, keeping HoTs timed, guard swaps and assisting or should we balance the game for the players that have figured that out?
Some guilds/alliances believe it or not win on both factions.

First of all have you tried playing RP with 3 tactics? Shaman gives up a tactic slot for the detaunt, and it needs to procc, dwarf armor tactic is probably a better damage mitigation in the long run than auto detaunt.
Second of all why are you even trying to compare RP and Shaman? They have very little in common and gives you zero credibility. Are we going to compare Black Orc and KotBS because they both have guard?
So the reason why Order loses city is because they don't have access to auto-detaunt, is that what you're trying to say? It's highly unclear what you're trying to convey.

The issue is that someone will train every day to become the best, so if we start balancing the game around the casuals this will have greater effects on the highest tier of game play as well as the lowest tier of gameplay. Going from the top down, balance will instead hopefully trickle down.

You dont get the point here. Mythic balanced and designed all classes over years. There was a reason to give abilitys to one class and some abilitys to other classes. All i said is that we actual shifting abilitys between realms without thinking about there original design and why some classes have no access to some abilitys.
I´m not saying game is worse than on live but also not better in all aspects.
This Order pug vs destro wb - destro win and build order wb vs destro -order win is nothing than a personal meaning of you. there are so many aspects why you win or lose a fight. just saying order loose because pug is simply wrong. I play city's by myself only on build and actual meta wb´s and this dosent mean i win all my citys

Mythics balance was atrocious, people were 2-3 shotting people with BiS on certain careers, shaman and AM BiS was like taking another healer with two gear sets down. Ravage spam for 1500 dmg, BW wiping 24 mans on release, the game was a mess, and little was done to balance it, stop trying to be nostalgic about mythic, they had no idea what they were doing at all. The devs here have continued to balance the careers from what was left by mythic, and even though some changes have been more or less successful the factions are way more balanced than live ever was. Just drop this mythic bs.

Personal meaning? What?
I play both sides, mainly order lately, there is no way order should be struggling the way they are with the careers they have access to.
If your super duper magnum meta guild WB lose against Destro, it's because Destro played better than you, not because of auto-detaunt on shaman or whatever you're trying to blame, the same team would best you if you played on Destro and they were on Order, surprise there's better players in this game than you and me.
If people who are skilled and good at this game manage to keep a 90%+ win rate on order (insert double WH meme) is it really an order issue, or is it a player issue? Devs cannot balance player skill.

Rp vs Shammy was just an example as i said. You can also say Shammy vs class XY. If you dont see the benefit of auto detaunt i cant help you. You dont need a global cd for it and dont need to refresh it all 5 sec. I dont say Order loose because of auto detaunt. I clearly said it makes your life easier.

And I pointed out that you lose a tactic slot to use it which is huge for any healer, and what you get is 25% chance on being hit to reduce Inc normal damage from one target by 25%. It's a sacrifice people do to survive, you can't go full glass cannon healer on either side and expect to survive.

okay no need to take your blabla anymore serious. the answer "dEsTrO aRe JuSt BeTtEr PeOpLe WiTh MorE SKiLl" we already have seen. If you think a actual winrate of 78% for destros in city's is just because 80% on destro better player you have one brain cell more than a git.