do we have a balance problem?

[emiliorv]

Spoiler:

In much better times (in terms of server occupancy), when my ib could not find a group, I saw cases with 8 engineers, so it's not so extreme and I'm more confused by the presence of 4 lions. I think there is still room for fixes.

4 WL´s....and 5 slayers => that 2 are solid picks for city wbs...why they finally end in a solo-pug instance??

Underpopulated: as underpopulated realm, they can get a pop 100% sure no matter if join solo/grp/wb => so why bother to try to join a wb ??
New solo-friendly matchmaking: with the new feature there are more chances to fight pugs when join as a solo-q => more options to win than before when solo-q....before that patch we saw the "unwanted classes" using soloq, but now the wanted ones just solo-q too (even best classes in their archetype).

probably is a expected result...when you cater solo players the ones who dont solo-q start to do it??

A couple of pages earlier, I wrote that as soon as I saw that, despite all the good intentions, the new system only partially helps the order, I immediately book out, thereby increasing the chances of those who remained to catch the bag. Lions are a solid choice for the city, the trouble is that I don't even know if there are people left for who are looking for this activity, not just to get dressed and continue playing 6on6.
And I'm not looking for a problem where there is none. The city has already been simplified nowhere further. It remains to introduce bags for those who simply did not get into the city and pve instances.

Well, so to dispel myths it looks like this
/g Yes, no, today I pass. We are in the bastion better.
/a Sorry full
/5 ?????

Your choice ? Oh yes, I forgot new players themselves should appear out of nowhere and make you fair competition.

Really right now making a pug WB in order probably is more dangerous that going solo-p, since full wbs face another full wbs there are high chances that you face a destro premade...so if before order struggle to make /5 wbs now is even worse => less order wbs means that more soloq will face destro 2/2/2 wbs, destro will keep making wbs trying to get pops...

[Ysaran]

You mean use those tools with coordination while destro is playing watching TV i guess, cuz how will u ever get in range for pounce in the 1st place or even get someone to have pounce in their spe right now... Or run to someone during a rKD while being snared ?

Ofc if 6vs1 u can do everything, but let s start by being honest (not like someone using a SS of ONE SINGLE city instance cherry picked from thousands to prove his point), there is a reason destro pop>order pop, and billions goblins are in the fields, and that s NOT cuz it s easy to catch them.

I won t respond more to this if u cannot start by being honest, then i will leave u to it and u can say u won that argument

I'll be honest: I don't get what are you complaining about. To kill a proper healed/guarded target you have to coordinate: punt, Demolishing Strike/Champion Challenge, healdebuff, armor debuff and kd. All this happens while enemies tank debuff you and snare you, so I don't get what's your problem in doing it to goblin.
Anyway, I rarely win an argument. Most of the time I just agree to disagree.
If you care to explain in depth what you think I'm glad to read it, or else we can just call it. Your choice.

[hammerhead]

Spoiler:

4 WL´s....and 5 slayers => that 2 are solid picks for city wbs...why they finally end in a solo-pug instance??

Underpopulated: as underpopulated realm, they can get a pop 100% sure no matter if join solo/grp/wb => so why bother to try to join a wb ??
New solo-friendly matchmaking: with the new feature there are more chances to fight pugs when join as a solo-q => more options to win than before when solo-q....before that patch we saw the "unwanted classes" using soloq, but now the wanted ones just solo-q too (even best classes in their archetype).

probably is a expected result...when you cater solo players the ones who dont solo-q start to do it??

A couple of pages earlier, I wrote that as soon as I saw that, despite all the good intentions, the new system only partially helps the order, I immediately book out, thereby increasing the chances of those who remained to catch the bag. Lions are a solid choice for the city, the trouble is that I don't even know if there are people left for who are looking for this activity, not just to get dressed and continue playing 6on6.
And I'm not looking for a problem where there is none. The city has already been simplified nowhere further. It remains to introduce bags for those who simply did not get into the city and pve instances.

Well, so to dispel myths it looks like this
/g Yes, no, today I pass. We are in the bastion better.
/a Sorry full
/5 ?????

Your choice ? Oh yes, I forgot new players themselves should appear out of nowhere and make you fair competition.

Really right now making a pug WB in order probably is more dangerous that going solo-p, since full wbs face another full wbs there are high chances that you face a destro premade...so if before order struggle to make /5 wbs now is even worse => less order wbs means that more soloq will face destro 2/2/2 wbs, destro will keep making wbs trying to get pops...

Yes exactly. But for you to make 2/2/2 pug on Order, you need to give a separate achievement. Personally, I only uncover my tanks when I go to the PVE or closer to the weekend when (if) an alliance WB is gathering. If they tell me that they need a tank, I'm happy to relog and play as a guild. And this conversation is just beginning to strongly resemble the one that took place last spring. The problem of class distribution was long before the city. And there is a very obvious reason for this. And I don't see a simple solution, I think everyone adapts as best they can. On the other hand, when I become completely indifferent, I will simply go over to destru side. Much for me now to try to hold on as long as possible is my game.

[kak932]

Order is not underpowered in my opinion. As others have stated it's more of a class choice / cultural issue. Order tends to lack both tanks and healers and it makes winning anything very difficult. When you have 6-8 tanks charging in city and nothing to slow/stop and not enough guards to go around, it's easy to see why order wins very few cities. Order tends to have a ton of ranged which is why they excel at fort defenses.

From my observation order overall tends to open fewer pug wbs. They form cities groups much less often but I hope that changes with the rewards for grouping up. I know that motivated me when sitting around in queue doing nothing for 15 minutes waiting for those final solo queuer instances to pop.
I also think city map tends to play better for destro. The tight alleyways and lack of elevated defensible positions adds to orders loss rate. Order lacks leadership too. Someone to give the pugs directions.

[marafado]

heheh its a question of size
just read a post where some1 said that am is a squish tower compared to shaman, great point here.
maybe the future "class/realm balance" shoulds focus more on toon sizes any sugestions for a propper "balance" toon size ;p

ps: maybe our beloved devs can make all toons with the same size (human empire), thats a great project for ror creative team

[Gurf]

There isn't any major class imbalance in terms of potentially putting out a top warband, the main imbalance is the cooldown decreasers so DOK can spam group cleanse, MSH can spam Big Bouncing, many Destro strong abilities are more available etc

But in terms of attractiveness of classes too much has been given to Destro and taken away from order. For example if you were choosing between Zealot and Rune Priest, the Zealot M1 and M4 bring a variation to its gameplay which you don't get on RP, while RP m2 Gromril Plating has been nerfed to oblivion. If you were to pick between WL and MSH/Mara there is no reason to pick WL any more, pounce has been handed out to many other classes.

For tanks as a SM you are basically a Whispering Wind bot which often gets blocked/parried = frustrating, KOBS you are aura bot with low damage = boring, IB is ap bot but also restrictive mechanic you start fight weak with 0 grudge = annoying and restrictive. So order lacks a lot of tanks because of this.

[Rapzel]

It will be good if you learn to read previous posts before typing anything. This is merely things destro has advantage in, but not solely reasons why order has lower winrate, because player mindset is also a problem, as is distribution of classes.

1. Yes, that is part of the advantages destro has.
2. Mara has the same dmg as WL, literally the same AOE skills, 50% armor ignore. plus mara has access to 50% crit dmg bonus (WL needs pet for it, pet is useless in city) and crit rate increase. WLs mobility, i.e. pounce is rarely used in cities, only in niche situations.
3. rSW is better than mSH in city? it is funny, not even gonna comment on that.
4. Yes. or you think GTDC and aoe kd are not very good cc tools?
5. Plainly wrong. order having 4 better careers still leaves 8 for destro, hence more options to compose viable WB.

These are advantages destro has, but is it only reason order looses? clearly not. As I have said situation is very nuanced, with several reasons and not clearly defined solution.

1. Okay, so having that advantage means EZ win, thanks for clarifying.
2. No, WL still does more damage than a Marauder. You still have Hack and Slash for armor penetration and Loner gives you an overall 25% dmg bonus, 50% crit damage bonus needs 50+ crit on a target to do 25% more damage and that's with 0% crit on the WL. As a added bonus WL has access to their Armor debuff in their "AoE" tree, while Mara needs to change stance and give up Mutated Aggressor (25% damage for 10 sec) if they want this. Having access to more specs (mainly because of the recent change in WL trees that no one really understands) for mara doesn't make it magically do more damage.
3. it does, mSH is reliant on CD decrease to reach these magical unicorn amounts of damage, the mSH damage was never sustainable and mSH took a great damage nerf with the moral nerf.



Disclaimer; last one I do believe is ranged SH.
With the fact that they also have barrage, healdebuff and ranged kd I think rSW does a very good job supporting a WB.

4. I think they're two highly situational CC's, GTDC is one random pull each tick, AoE stun is 2 sec long, good warbands can and WILL use staggers or AoE silences instead if needed as they CC for a longer period of time, organised gameplay doesn't revolve around spamming CC.

5. Who said the 8 other careers Order has are worse than the Destro "counterparts"? Did you miss that I wrote "best" and then 1 tank, 1 mDPS, 1 rDPS and 1 healer?
IB is way better in WBs than BG but neither of them are the BEST wb tank, that title still belongs to KotBS. Magus may be better than Engi (depending on setup imho, cannon smash is scary) but that doesn't make magus the best rDPS for WB.

And that's already something that was stated, Destro DPS careers overall are more balanced between each other while Order has a higher discrepancy between DPS careers, which allows for more Destro DPS to be "viable".
What I've learned from running in WBs on Order is that you can't play without AM which for some strange reason (to me) is seen as "bad" though every time we get a hold of 2 that are worth their weight in salt the game gets so much easier it's insane, same with Engi that actually use Cannon Smash, yet Engi is apparently terrible as well. You can't stack certain careers, this applies to both sides.

[Rapzel]

There isn't any major class imbalance in terms of potentially putting out a top warband, the main imbalance is the cooldown decreasers so DOK can spam group cleanse, MSH can spam Big Bouncing, many Destro strong abilities are more available etc

But in terms of attractiveness of classes too much has been given to Destro and taken away from order. For example if you were choosing between Zealot and Rune Priest, the Zealot M1 and M4 bring a variation to its gameplay which you don't get on RP, while RP m2 Gromril Plating has been nerfed to oblivion. If you were to pick between WL and MSH/Mara there is no reason to pick WL any more, pounce has been handed out to many other classes.

For tanks as a SM you are basically a Whispering Wind bot which often gets blocked/parried = frustrating, KOBS you are aura bot with low damage = boring, IB is ap bot but also restrictive mechanic you start fight weak with 0 grudge = annoying and restrictive. So order lacks a lot of tanks because of this.

Just cleanse CD decrease, like rampage

Uhh gromril plating is IB, Mountain Spirit is RP m2.

Majority of player base is perplexed about the pounce change tbh, like the fact that WE was given pounce which feels like it's a "buff" to be able to "justify" the armor debuff on WH that no one feels is uncalled for.

BO is a Waaaaagh bot, SM has the interrupt and some other small tools, Chosen is a worse aura bot and BG is just a high defense pillar with AoE slow, at least IB has AP buff going for it.

[Gurf]

There isn't any major class imbalance in terms of potentially putting out a top warband, the main imbalance is the cooldown decreasers so DOK can spam group cleanse, MSH can spam Big Bouncing, many Destro strong abilities are more available etc

But in terms of attractiveness of classes too much has been given to Destro and taken away from order. For example if you were choosing between Zealot and Rune Priest, the Zealot M1 and M4 bring a variation to its gameplay which you don't get on RP, while RP m2 Gromril Plating has been nerfed to oblivion. If you were to pick between WL and MSH/Mara there is no reason to pick WL any more, pounce has been handed out to many other classes.

For tanks as a SM you are basically a Whispering Wind bot which often gets blocked/parried = frustrating, KOBS you are aura bot with low damage = boring, IB is ap bot but also restrictive mechanic you start fight weak with 0 grudge = annoying and restrictive. So order lacks a lot of tanks because of this.

Just cleanse CD decrease, like rampage

Uhh gromril plating is IB, Mountain Spirit is RP m2.

Majority of player base is perplexed about the pounce change tbh, like the fact that WE was given pounce which feels like it's a "buff" to be able to "justify" the armor debuff on WH that no one feels is uncalled for.

BO is a Waaaaagh bot, SM has the interrupt and some other small tools, Chosen is a worse aura bot and BG is just a high defense pillar with AoE slow, at least IB has AP buff going for it.

Yeah Mountain Spirit, its been so long since used it forgot the name.

I know you are joking but Can Waaaaagh and Chop Fasta be shattered, I thought they didn't count as Enchantments? still not like it makes any difference as there isnt any aoe shatter enchantment skill

[Wdova]

Most melee reroll to rdps cause they are tired of being kited while having 0 chance to fight back. If that doesn't lead to less melee in proportion, i don't know what would.

Order always was even on live the side with more ranged dps and destro with more melee trains. Dont get buffed SH to SW level as an excuse that order " had to reroll" to rdps because off.... goblins.