[Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

[Klod91]

How often do you see organized WBs running with 2h knights(outside of ST group in City)? How often with 2h BGs?

I would say that if there is 50 knights running around in Praag, 1 of them will be 2h. Probably Vont or Triperiic, because I haven't seen them ever with snb.

What makes a 2h knight less desirable in WB play compared to other tanks? Is it just the lack of survivability?
So not only do you not deal any dmg, you are also squishier. I think someone above mentioned that you should aim at staying alive and providing auras for your group. It seems ironic.

I didn't reply to every post, but it seems to me that people think that I want to be dps tank or something. The aim is to figure out whether lower damage output is made up for by other benefits of the class.
People repeat over and over that Kotbs is the best tank, as if other tanks don't bring anything to the table. Auras this, auras that. "Yeah, but you have +15% healing" Do other classes not have anything that is really usefull for the warband? While also dishing out more damage.

[tazdingo]

you only need 1 2h knight to apply arcing swing so an organized wb will only ever support 1

also yes, bo for example brings waaaghh and bellows whilst also bringing more dmg than a knight... but in a wb vs wb bo is still doing an insignificant amount of useful burst dmg compared to proper aoe dps so who the hell cares?

[Klod91]

I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to other tank classes. Would anyone be so kind to give me a quick rundown of their most used abilities? So I have a better picture of what every tank class brings to the fight.

I did look through the Career Builder, but I would love to see an average RvR/City and 6v6 builds. Would appreciate if you posted them here.

[Foomy44]

Auras this, auras that. Do other classes not have anything that is really usefull for the warband? While also dishing out more damage.

Yes, pretty much every class brings something to a warband. Some classes will bring 1 buff that only affects grp members, some have buffs tied to abilities that require a cd and ap useage during combat an possibly better positioning to land an attack, some have buffs that can only be on 1 or 2 targets at a time, and lots of these buffs have short durations. No other class besides their mirror has 3 grp wide buffs active at all times for no cost while simultaneously debuffing any enemy that comes close without having to press a single button during combat. Everything else they do is always ontop of the fact they are a walking buff/debuff machine. They bring more utility than other class, therfore they also bring less damage.

[arorwne]

Yes, that's exactly the elephant in the room. Sure, both Knight and Chosen bring a lot to the group(arguably less than they used to because other tanks got better at this), but answer this:

Can or Will you be grouped all the time? How about 50% of time?

Last I checked this game is balanced around group play.

That it is. But it's also true you can't group all the time. For various reasons. Time limits, simply not wanting commitments etc.

Yes, that's exactly the elephant in the room. Sure, both Knight and Chosen bring a lot to the group(arguably less than they used to because other tanks got better at this), but answer this:

Can or Will you be grouped all the time? How about 50% of time?

imagine playing a tank not in a group omegalul

Yes, ok, but why is it ok that you can play every other CLASS out of group just fine, but you can't really do that with Knight / Chosen*? Basically, it all comes down to Focused Offense vs Divine Fury. One is utter garbage, the other is more than ok. And that situation describes the state of Tanks, more or less.

*ok, being a Knight makes sense to be heavily group focused, but please tell me how a CHOSEN makes sense to be pathetic out of group? It is a CHOSEN, ffs! Like, have you seen GW(=2H) Chosen in something like Total Warhammer?

[detrap]

Spoiler:

Yes, that's exactly the elephant in the room. Sure, both Knight and Chosen bring a lot to the group(arguably less than they used to because other tanks got better at this), but answer this:

Can or Will you be grouped all the time? How about 50% of time?

Last I checked this game is balanced around group play.

That it is. But it's also true you can't group all the time. For various reasons. Time limits, simply not wanting commitments etc.

Yes, that's exactly the elephant in the room. Sure, both Knight and Chosen bring a lot to the group(arguably less than they used to because other tanks got better at this), but answer this:

Can or Will you be grouped all the time? How about 50% of time?

imagine playing a tank not in a group omegalul

Yes, ok, but why is it ok that you can play every other CLASS out of group just fine, but you can't really do that with Knight / Chosen*? Basically, it all comes down to Focused Offense vs Divine Fury. One is utter garbage, the other is more than ok. And that situation describes the state of Tanks, more or less.

*ok, being a Knight makes sense to be heavily group focused, but please tell me how a CHOSEN makes sense to be pathetic out of group? It is a CHOSEN, ffs! Like, have you seen GW(=2H) Chosen in something like Total Warhammer?

Last time I checked both Knight/Chosen already can beat most non-healer classes 1v1 or 1v2.

[tazdingo]

One is utter garbage, the other is more than ok. And that situation describes the state of Tanks, more or less.

tanks are the most impactful archetype in the game when you use their ability to negate burst and control battles to their fullest potential instead of just picking one because you don't have the balls to play slayer

[Earthcake]

I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to other tank classes. Would anyone be so kind to give me a quick rundown of their most used abilities? So I have a better picture of what every tank class brings to the fight.

I did look through the Career Builder, but I would love to see an average RvR/City and 6v6 builds. Would appreciate if you posted them here.

This is how I play on IB :
https://cakesplan.wordpress.com/2021/05 ... r-2h-city/
https://cakesplan.wordpress.com/2021/05 ... -snb-city/

[detrap]

Spoiler:

How often do you see organized WBs running with 2h knights(outside of ST group in City)? How often with 2h BGs?

I would say that if there is 50 knights running around in Praag, 1 of them will be 2h. Probably Vont or Triperiic, because I haven't seen them ever with snb.

What makes a 2h knight less desirable in WB play compared to other tanks? Is it just the lack of survivability?
So not only do you not deal any dmg, you are also squishier. I think someone above mentioned that you should aim at staying alive and providing auras for your group. It seems ironic.

I didn't reply to every post, but it seems to me that people think that I want to be dps tank or something. The aim is to figure out whether lower damage output is made up for by other benefits of the class.
People repeat over and over that Kotbs is the best tank, as if other tanks don't bring anything to the table. Auras this, auras that. "Yeah, but you have +15% healing" Do other classes not have anything that is really usefull for the warband? While also dishing out more damage.

I've seen a lot of builds posted by various players and I don't remember seeing one ever picking up Staggering Impact (SI) for the sake of picking up a knock down ability from the tank tree.

When you pick that ability first while at the trainer when going 2H, you get a good sense of what your role is going to be in warband play. You go down the tree and pick up Overpowering Swing, then realise the synergy between SI and Arcing Swing (AS). Two powerful abilities that are debuffs and make up the backbone of why you are going 2H. Along with defensive gear and renown dumped into toughness/weaponskill and avoidance, Path of Glory is where you can then build up your survivability, with Focus Mending and even Runefang if you have enough points.

Your strength aura becomes very useful defensively since it now debuffs 114 strength from enemy melee, causing their attacks to get parried and blocked by your warband more.

Because you are squishier than being SnB with Vigilance, your survivability with positioning relies heavily on being in the secondary line behind your tank wall and/or flanking the outskirts of the enemy warband.

Well before a morale drop or channel is called, you time your run to get behind the blob to use AS and SI, since AS works off a 180 degree arc and is less likely to be defended against after you drop SI and are already behind enemy targets.

That's basically the point of Path of Conquest. If your low gear and survivability is still an issue then Knights have an amazing M1 absorb shield that works well with high toughness and an M2 that buffs your Strength /Toughness/Wounds by 240 points and heals you for 2400 HP.

Sure you can stack strength and crit, use full offensive sov as an example, but you'll be putting a lot of stress on your healers and your line of sight and positioning has to be top tier.

[Klod91]

You go down the tree and pick up Overpowering Swing, then realise the synergy between SI and Arcing Swing (AS).

Then realise that you can't even hit with SI or AS because you have 400 str and every attack gets defended against?
Not to mention you can't get through the weakest absorb shield for your control abilities.

This is how I play on IB :
https://cakesplan.wordpress.com/2021/05 ... r-2h-city/
https://cakesplan.wordpress.com/2021/05 ... -snb-city/

Thanks!