I invite you to join the discussion of tanks of the sides of order and destruction

[ufthakk]

Give the CDR back to bo or if u don't like to mirror give it to msw
It's a clear advantage to have such a key ability on a tank.
I think bo/sm and chosen/knights are in for the same reason: provide stats.
And while chosen stats can give resist and ap on a steady base the bo has to hit or get hit first.
I think it would be smart to seperate them a little, like buff the ap ability from bo and delete the one from chosen :S
Also a tank needs a st punt to be viable in 6v6.

[ChicagoJoe]

It would be good to use a n existing topic like this to identify some small tweaks that could balance the tank distribution and performance slightly.

IMO

Chosen/KOTBS - easiest class to play at a level to be competent in game (even easier than choppa/slayer) - best overall for party, really top 1-2 at everything.

I don't know what to suggest change wise that wouldn't make them a clearer/only choice.

Since mechanics are so easy you need to think about taunt/challenge/guard swap/punt and an occasional situation debuf or aura change.

BO/SM - harder class to play because of mechanics - BO used to be best tank, with cool down buff and morale increaser (easier mechanics to get them too than SM) On order SM highly in demand with WW, but much lower population on order side. BO high pop, still strong b/c morale. Still solid 2nd tank.

I would address the recent BO nerf. I think the morale nerf was necessary, dunno about the cool down removal replacement performance. Maybe a ST punt? Adding something else as undefendable?

Because of stance impact you take the 4-5 things and discussed on chosen/kotbs and have to factor in stance timing, so now you have to think about 10-15 things.

IB/BG - hardest to play. Some good friend buffs but a ton of buttons to keep track off, and most of the buffs are only half good as they don't stack. Plan B not as helpful for this class b/c lack of cooldown tracking, so NB removal really impactful. Oath/Hatred mechanic really tough to manage, requiring a warm up period and/or a tactic. Too many lower level IB play 2H and don't have the right gear or tactics yet and this hurts SC performance. Not sure how this impacts BG.

Because of hatred/grudge, you have to think about building and using, and short cool downs for everything. When you are playing well you are popping 20+ abilities/swaps in a battle constantly.

Thoughts to help IB/BG
Longer buff period? Constant buff like KOTBS/Chosen?
Grudge/Hatred on hit AND being hit without tactic?
Most buffs don't stack with pots. 2 STR mechanics don't stack with pots or each other. One/both of the STR mechanics would be helpful to stack or change one to something else. Having a core ability in the rotation as undefendable could help.

[NSKaneda]

2 coins for the Raven God: making IB/BG buffs stack with pots (again) would make them almost obligatory asset yet still locked behind high-skill threshold... Plus minor tweaks like reverting a nerf to their morales. Just a thought.

[Martok]

...want to deliberately consider a game with snb since the tank, in my humble opinion, should fulfill its role.

This is where you lost any and all credibility, as the translation of your comment is "play your tank in my proscribed fashion are you are not doing it right...waaaaaaaaaaagh!"

Please.

[Azary1]

...want to deliberately consider a game with snb since the tank, in my humble opinion, should fulfill its role.

This is where you lost any and all credibility, as the translation of your comment is "play your tank in my proscribed fashion are you are not doing it right...waaaaaaaaaaagh!"

Please.

What does not suit you in my opinion? I am not ordering you, but only expressing my vision. You are overly aggressive

[Marchmain]

Two observations. One even if a tank class doesn't have some sort of way to contribute a buff or skill that helps the warband or group they still can still be useful in that they are all hard to kill. This may not be important for all situations but is in others (scenario capture points for example...IMO most tanks should be objective focused even more than other classes).

And second I always see people dunking on how the order classes look compared to Destro. Ok I concede that Destro are darker and edgier and have more appeal to certain demographics. My first main in live was a Black Orc and Greenskins on a whole are my favorite faction look and character wise. But am I the only person who thinks KotBS are amazing looking? The ruffled shirts, the ornamental helms, the feathers, the codpieces? I love everything about them.

[Auzor]

Chosen/KotBS: I have mulled a bit back and forth. Yes, it is *easier* to play with aura's than the other classes... but I think that's preferable than 'press button A, 4.5 seconds later button B, then C repeatedly.

My suggestion for Chosen/KotBS (if the current implementation has to go): their Aura's, have a 30s 'action time', 60s cooldown.
Now you have to decide, when to use which Aura, and having more than your three 'main' aura's (/orders) on your action bar makes absolute sense.
Perhaps some of the lesser used aura's should be buffed to make up for this.

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Looks-wise: I think SM especially, looks *fine*. If anything, DE BG has a bit of an issue where the Halberd is lore-wise, part of the uniform.
For the Knight, I think a wider variety of weapons could be nice. Hammers would get onto WP territory; but I see no reason why there'd not be some pole-axes (smaller than BG elvish styles Halberd), and maybe a type of spiked morning star weapon as options.

The Ironbreaker: well.. doesn't he look a bit like he's supposed to? :s

-------------------------------------------------

Tank gameplay:

1) Tanks have better survivability; great. But if you look at scenario's e.g., you'll see that majority of the time, it is the healers that top out the protection charts. (SM/BO have a certain advantage here, in that they have a group shield on reasonably short cd, and random group heals which do add up).
Bottom line: don't expect great rewards. And if anything, I think it's here that changes should be made, *especially* for the SnB tank: they imo, should be top protection.
Want to top the dmg charts? Bring a Dps. Top healing charts? Bring a healer. Top protection charts? Bring a SnB tank.

How to:
Taunt. Taunt currently means, your target takes 30% more dmg from your attacks. Well... 1.3 x weak dmg = ... slightly less weak dmg.
It should be changed: if you are wearing a shield, will also *lower* the damage your target does to others, by 30%, for 6s? or until opponent has hit you 3 times.
And the result of this should count as 'protection.
In other words, a weaker, single target 'challenge'.
I also think this taunt, could be off the global cooldown.

SnB guarding, could be given slightly more range or better effectiveness (lowers dmg taken by 5%,... lowers dmg taken from critical hits by 5-10%,... the precise effect could depend between each tank; lowers dmg taken from periodic effects;....

SM is imo, actually an excellent example of the sort of abilities that tanks could have:
a group shield;
( a random wound buff proc-heal)
Raking talons: lower enemy blob dmg output to 80%
Vaul's tempering.

SM issues: the weak-ass AoE knockback... that requires *perfect* stance.
Single-target snares that require *improved* stance (are you *kidding* me??)
Buff the knockback distance for SM/BO, to somewhat lessen the glaring lacking of a single-target knockback.
Give all tanks (at least single-target) snares, that have no requirements attached like stance, or 'if the target is ailing' etc.

Related SM/BO issues: very short duration buffs.
Raking Talons: 4s duration.
Eagle's Flight: +25% parry, great! 5s duration...
Vaul's tempering: a group buff! 3s duration.

Combined with the stances, and this becomes not so fun to play.
(I don't consider the mechanic fun at all)

For BO, the equivalent to 'raking talons', is no tactic slot, party -20% magic dmg taken, for 4s.
And this is where we run into destro tank... issues imo.

ALL the order tanks, have synergy (pretend a PvE situation).
Knight + other tank: enjoy the +25% healing received.
Ironbreaker: +25% parry
Swordmaster: *raking talons* : -20% dmg output to enemies in 20 feet circle.

Destro tanks... not so much.

All destro tanks, have some sort of anti-magic focus, to a greater degree than order (imo).
(hence, BO -20% magical dmg taken for 4s). BG: disrupt tactic; Chosen: a dmg anti-magic aura, and a +disrupt +silence ability as top 3rd tree.
Yet, it is order that has 2 ranged ballistic classes...
imo, this in part, stems from a time when BW's ruled the earth.
For at least some of these, it could be nice to change them to be anti 'any ranged dmg'; such as BO: reduces the party's incoming magic AND ranged dmg by 20% e.g.
Remember: currently this attack requires 'da best plan' AND a nearby target to hit, AND it only lasts 4 seconds.... so imo, further changes are certainly welcome.

The Chosen 'discordant fluctuation' could be made to proc from both Magic, and Ranged abilities,...



Continuing on the tank train of thought: most abilities are single-target.
Perhaps the weaker dmg abilities, should be AoE when paired with a shield? To give the pure tanks some minor AoE dmg output, greater than now, when they *do* get stuck into combat.
Might help with them earing some rewards...
For sieges, increasing the reward from 'Hold the Line' and Block channels could be considered; I don't know the math involved.
Perhaps 'Hold the Line' could also reflect some dmg (less than the block channels) on a succesful defense...


Giving some tanks a group-cleanse option could also be very nice:
only 2/3 healers have a group cleanse; perhaps 1/3 tanks could get a group cleanse, with a much longer cooldown obviously (20s?) (*not* Chosen/KotBS most likely; I'm thinking more towards BO as replacement for the loss of cooldown reduction; and then I don't know for Order.... bonus: might help destro a bit vs that pesky BHA spam )

[Asherdoom]

i propose one thing for ALL classes: introduce target=mouseover macros. help a lot!

[CountTalabecland]

IB/Slayer is under utilized by Order. Mostly because outside of organized grps, there are no tanks. IB needs to simply focus on giving Slayer 100% uptime on +25% parry and +10% crit while feeding action points. Str/armor will already be on Slayer from pots and toughness is a useless buff on Slayer/Knight already does it better.

A large scale issue is finally finding a way to get ppl to play tanks on Order at the pug level. Not uncommon to see Order have 2 tanks per pugband. It kills the ORvR campaign as Order is reduced to hiding in keep with most of the wb being RDPS until destro wipes or logs off.

[Gargis]

Anecdotally, in my experience tanks take a lot more damage compared to live. Its not uncommon to see s/b tanks get wrecked in Orvr, especially low RR ones.
I experienced the same thing on my tanks here at low RR. They get better at higher RR and with advanced gear, but the difference at low and mid rank was barely discernable.

That was my experience leveling and gearing a IB, Knight, and SM. All of which are RR 80+ now. The IB in full Def Sov "feels" tougher than the others who are in a mix of Sov/Vader. All of the tanks have the Sent jewelry pce with +6 to block.

Speaking with players who gave up on tanks, they convey that it is just not satisfying to play a low dps class with non-commensurate survivability. It has to be acknowledged that Destro tanks are probably a little tougher with the tactics and abilities they can choose, which is not unreasonable considering that Order has Slayers with Numbing strike and Rampage. Yes, I have a Chosen and BG at ~RR 50.

So what can be done? Perhaps change the Renown ability % per level or reverse it. Instead of 1% block at tier 1, make it 4%, tier 2-3%, tier 3-2% and tier 4-1%. I don't think that is unreasonable considering that there are many tactics that allow you to reduced a defenders ability to block and parry, which in some cases can be up to 15%.

I can see how its not fun to play a s/b tank, with low damage and get destroyed by range at low RR. So its not question of why people don't want to play tanks. The real question is what should be done about it.