DoK and Dual Wield

[NoNatasha]

I've been trying out DoK with dual wield, And I'm very curious how others manage to do it, and what stats matters, because my healing output is nowhere near as good as my other healer classes were. To the point where I can't even keep 1 person alive against attacks.

[Lime]

Dual wield is for dps spec. Chalice is for healing.

[Denali]

Dual wield is for dps spec. Chalice is for healing.

Does that mean that "Life Tap" healing (aka, DPSing and healing yourself and group members based on your melee damage) is no longer a thing? Or, is it still a viable way to heal, but with a Chalice in off-hand instead of dual-wield 2nd weapon?

I'm mainly asking about RvR/warband type groups, tho the OP may have been asking about a different scale of healing.



My apologies if this is a stupid question, but as others have noted, there is a huge amount of either outdated or totally irrelevant info out there that is pretty difficult to wade thru... esp when semi-new and unsure of what's been updated, what's been left untouched, and what's been removed entirely.

[Lime]

Lifetap melee healer build uses a shield now for dok/wp.

Try this.

viewtopic.php?t=49417

[Lisutaris]

I've been trying out DoK with dual wield, And I'm very curious how others manage to do it, and what stats matters, because my healing output is nowhere near as good as my other healer classes were. To the point where I can't even keep 1 person alive against attacks.

Dual wield is a pure DD spec. You can heal a little bit (sould rend) and your instant HOT but that's it. Your heal as Dual Wield is more like a support for your "real healers" in grp when some1 gets focussed and you want to support via soul rend or for yourself.

Shield + Sword is the hybrid spec. You will heal as you are doing damage. You are lacking any kind of burst dmg and/or armor penetration tho'. (what DW got). It is on par with chalice, has its benefits and also downsides in comparison. (biggest benefit of chalice over shield is being able to heal outside your own grp.... as shield you can only really heal your own grp effectively) As you are always on the frontlines you are most likely depending on a guard or good equip and defensive spec. You are there for healing .... your damage will be some kind of support in assist/bursting down targets.
To explain it short and simple -> Shield DoK scales with STR, Chalice with Willpower (bad scaling, you usually go wounds/armor or something like that). Chalice won't do any real dmg, Shield DoKs will do some moderate dmg but not even close to a real DD. Chalice can heal from range and gets ressources over time (blood), shield has to hit something to heal. If you are on a squishy target and can use your healing abilities freely, it is a very strong healer, if not .... chalice will be better in terms of healing output.

Chalice is the ranged healing spec. You are pretty much not depending on anything as your chalice will reg up your blood and you use essence leash on nearby targets for additional ressources. Alot of ppl tend to spam the aoe healing ... (casted one). Try out using your single target hots (both) on your grp members and your mastery tree grp hot .... as they scale of that mastery tree and are pretty strong. The casted GRP heal is more used for countering big incoming dmg spikes on your grp. You are a good healer on this spec in terms of healing over time and/or strong grp heal spamming for a short amount of time. You also get access to your grp cleanse on the chalice tree, which can be pretty useful in rvr / pvp grps.

Hopefully that gives some insight on these 3 mastery trees.

Lifetap explaination:
Lifetaps are healing abilities that use dmg for healing. A good example for a lifetap ability is "Rend Soul" -> you do some dmg and heal up xxx% of that dmg. This usually does not count as a heal. (Good example where lifetaps rock pretty hard are dungeon bosses which negate or debuff healing ... lifetaps aren't affected by that).

If you need any help ingame on your DoK, feel free to pm me on @Rhyshara. (Build, RR points or something like that)

[Absinth]

To explain it short and simple -> Shield DoK scales with STR, Chalice with Willpower (bad scaling, you usually go wounds/armor or something like that).

[...]

Lifetap explaination:
Lifetaps are healing abilities that use dmg for healing. A good example for a lifetap ability is "Rend Soul" -> you do some dmg and heal up xxx% of that dmg. This usually does not count as a heal. (Good example where lifetaps rock pretty hard are dungeon bosses which negate or debuff healing ... lifetaps aren't affected by that).

[...]

Willpower is not the best scaling but its also not the worst scaling, people tend to make it sound as it gives nothing but jump into gear without willpower (dps spec gear) and somehow you start to see that it gives okay amounts of additional heal, if willpower scaling was better then we probably would have issues with killing healers on heal debuff. The issues is that willpower talis are not balanced enough for healers and most of people instead of picking a medium bonus for heal prefer getting to 10K hp as it will give you some more room for mistakes.

As for lifetaps they do not rock hard in PVE, maybe if you are full dps sov but from my experience a standard chalice DoK will outheal you pretty hard in dungeons (And dont try to excuse it with heal debuff as the heavy hitting ones are removable by your DoK cleanse). Issue with being a melee heal DoK in dungeons is the fact that AOE dmg that usually is omitted by standing away goes right into you and i have yet to see someone who can keep group stable while being melee heal dok in dungeon. Just an example from gunbad run i had yesterday, me in chalice DoK ~600k heal in the left wing to allies, ~50k to myself. Melee heal DoK that was ensuring us that its fine and he will do good heal: 320k to allies, 120k to himself. (we both had the same tier gear (vanq ward) and he even had str talis in his build)

[Lisutaris]

To explain it short and simple -> Shield DoK scales with STR, Chalice with Willpower (bad scaling, you usually go wounds/armor or something like that).

[...]

Lifetap explaination:
Lifetaps are healing abilities that use dmg for healing. A good example for a lifetap ability is "Rend Soul" -> you do some dmg and heal up xxx% of that dmg. This usually does not count as a heal. (Good example where lifetaps rock pretty hard are dungeon bosses which negate or debuff healing ... lifetaps aren't affected by that).

[...]

Willpower is not the best scaling but its also not the worst scaling, people tend to make it sound as it gives nothing but jump into gear without willpower (dps spec gear) and somehow you start to see that it gives okay amounts of additional heal, if willpower scaling was better then we probably would have issues with killing healers on heal debuff. The issues is that willpower talis are not balanced enough for healers and most of people instead of picking a medium bonus for heal prefer getting to 10K hp as it will give you some more room for mistakes.

As for lifetaps they do not rock hard in PVE, maybe if you are full dps sov but from my experience a standard chalice DoK will outheal you pretty hard in dungeons (And dont try to excuse it with heal debuff as the heavy hitting ones are removable by your DoK cleanse). Issue with being a melee heal DoK in dungeons is the fact that AOE dmg that usually is omitted by standing away goes right into you and i have yet to see someone who can keep group stable while being melee heal dok in dungeon. Just an example from gunbad run i had yesterday, me in chalice DoK ~600k heal in the left wing to allies, ~50k to myself. Melee heal DoK that was ensuring us that its fine and he will do good heal: 320k to allies, 120k to himself. (we both had the same tier gear (vanq ward) and he even had str talis in his build)

I think you misunderstood some parts.
Willpower has a very very bad scaling for shield or dual wield DOKs(not talking about chalice spec/skills), as your skills does not even scale with them at all! -> Rend soul or transfer essence won't benefit from willpower... 0 ... nothing (they only scale STR - as dmg is healing). The skills from the chalice spec do, so if you are using them, like your single heal over time, yes you will see a slight increase BUT because of your tactics these heals are already ~ -40% less effective or even more -> therefore your willpower scaling is worse than on chalice. Because of tactics used for dual wield and shield spec... willpower is really not useful, same with the chalice heal skills ... very situational and most likely a waste of global cooldown. But they have their place to be used, when you got nothing else to do otherwise and essence. to spare.

About your experience:
Lifetaps DO rock hard in PvE. Heal debuff from BB/BE is not cleansable, same with Khorne Beast in Bastion Stair. As your lifetaps don't count as heal, these are very easy encounters for a Shield DoK. Sure, it is situational but it is a benefit. In PvE a Shield or Dual Wield DOK has to get a decent amount of armor rating and/or wounds but I would say that counts for every melee DPS class that's not actively guarded. For PvE content, a shield DoKs first priority is usually ~8k HP buffed and 1050 Str buffed to maximize heals and survival, then everything in crit chance.
As I healed BB/BE and Gunbad solo at around ~Bloodlord Set and I would say RR 6x ish, yeah ... no... it rocks hard. I have seen bad or mediocre players with every class and every spec.... so maybe you are more lucky next time and get into a group with a good shield dok healer
PS: At high RR shield doks can use grp cleanse Therefore.... even that is covered.

Last 2 cents: To maximize your healing on a Shield Dok you have to do a lot of stuff Depending on tactics that could be grp cleansing or doing that chalice hot(yeah the bad scaling one i talked about) because it is still a weak hot but better than nothing if you got nothing else to do, swapping around your friendly targets for your tasty +20% heal on them (so you got alot of them covered) and also use rend soul on friends for inc dmg spikes on, for example tank or dd who got aggro.
And we don't even talk about real min/maxing or using blood for blood which can be tricky.

Biggest place to shine as a Shield DoK is PvE content and small scale PvP (6man grps).... In RvR fights and Warbands a chalice DoK spec will offer much more for the group, for example if crosshealing is needed/wanted or you want to have tons of healing over time from range or grp cleanse at any RR.

[Caduceus]

A little more specifically,

Dual Wield is a primary DPS spec, and while the ST healing output is not trivial, it's not enough to keep targets up under sustained pressure the way a main healer can.

Chalice is main healer spec focused on AoE healing. Probably the best class at keeping alive their group under AoE pressure. That's why this spec is preferred in warbands. It falls short in ST healing however.

Shield is also a main healer spec, but it focuses more on ST healing, and gets very respectable damage to boot. This makes it the go-to spec for DoK healers in 6mans. The trade off is that it is a melee/life-tap healer, making it a tricky, delicate class to play.

[Lisutaris]

A little more specifically,

Shield is also a main healer spec, but it focuses more on ST healing, and gets very respectable damage to boot. This makes it the go-to spec for DoK healers in 6mans. The trade off is that it is a melee/life-tap healer, making it a tricky, delicate class to play.

You mean AoE healing for shield

[Lilim]

Too much necromantic energy here.

/closed