Gap Closer Balance

[Garamore]

Happy to test it with anyone. If you are truely out of los it wont pull. The guy probably has 500 ping and is actually is in los.

[Akalukz]

So so wrong - go do some testing. It breaks on los, its breaks on range if mara moves backwards (even sometimes when your moving forwards). Its only pulling you through a wall as the server thinks your not behind it i.e you have a bad connection

An engineer posted a video that it DOES NOT break on los, and you say it is!??! It’s your word against a recorded actual pull.

I would be willing to test with you. It can be broken by LoS and parried as well.

[Akalukz]

Pounce range was reduced because of the ability to get up on keep walls.

Now that (outside of forts) that's completely fixed, that should be readjusted to be 65ft again.

Keep pull how it is, for both Mara and WL (as WL gets 65 ft pounch, Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce)

Not fixed, still areas where WL / SM can pounce on walls, and mara/choppa pull from Walls. Notably Praag South keep and KV South keep. Probably others as well.

[NSKaneda]

Maybe try testing on a mara Not saying its perfect but its not as broken as people say. Its supposed to be the way that maras deal with range so it does need to work and not be 100% easily avoidable like people seem to want to make it.

I admit to feeling slightly stupid that I have not done it already - but my Mara is one sc away from T4 and I'd have to gear up 1st.. Excuses, excuses

[Panzer80]

Not sure if the intent on WL pounce nerf was to stop wall pouncing, but the distances otherwise seem fine on both pulls. Any shorter and they will encroach on the actual melee attack ranges. If WL pounce gets any shorter it will need to be able to crit to balance its usefulness. I don't know that Mara pull is even broken, but rather different instead. Mara should pull farther than WL due to WL pounce as I see it. My pull does get los broken, does get defended, etc, and also pulls to MY location rather than that of a pet.

The answer to what you're trying to ask for is to reduce melee AOE range by about 15-20% across the board. This would balance out the gameplay, which is already melee centric.

[Valfaros]

Keep pull how it is, for both Mara and WL (as WL gets 65 ft pounch, Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce)

So you are playing destro now

Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce? How about elves getting gits run away then and WL the armor pierce ignore and self hot of mara brutality and of course the mara aoe knock down and free 50% armor pierce tactic for most of their attacks and dual wield for more procs. How about that?

Seriously now, what are you smoking? That mara pull as it is right now is super broken and completely unfair for the receiving side.

There was a time where the WL pull had no range at all. It was the same unfair stuff.

Are you implying WL is somehow weak? Cause that is what it sounds like. Isn't it topping together with slayer and choppa every kill dps chart and win rate. Have you ever been on the recieving end of a WL pull? Cause no animation + sprint + LF + it being instant makes it not fun to play against either. "Hurr durr but you can kill the pet." Yeah good luck pulling this off consistently cause you won't.

However of course bugs like LOS and out of range or interrupts not working should absolutly be fixed. But as its a casted skill you always get a slight difference of almost finished skills still going through, every range skill has it. Not sure if its due to ping or actually coded in. Neither do I like getting pulled through walls which I had happen to me with both skills. I also am all on board nerfing the range on both skills altogether but that the WL somehow needs a buff over anything is ridiculus. If you have trouble with the class you should seriously reconsider what a the f you are doing.

Also are you saying a skill having unlimited range since is equivalent to a skill going slightly above 65 ft due to ping and the cast skill buffer? Cause that is what it sounds like. That would be a stupid statement to make.

[Cyrylius]

I've used mara pull extensively for a few years already, and in general it seems that it's broken in at least a few ways. I've seen it pulling people from well over 100 feet and I've seen it break on third (allegedly non existing) range check, breaks on los are a dice roll, target lands in a random point between your current location, your starting location, target's current location, target's starting location and anything between those, gets parried or not and sometimes just casually stops target on terrain between you and the target instead of losing it. It should probably be fixed because one skill shouldn't contain this amount of jank.
On the whole WL/mara comparison, players in ror can be roughly divided between those who know how to play both classes and are well aware of what exactly are the differences between them (and how they are supposed to be balanced), and those who don't and lack that awareness. Food for thought.

[Darkdargor]

So so wrong - go do some testing. It breaks on los, its breaks on range if mara moves backwards (even sometimes when your moving forwards). Its only pulling you through a wall as the server thinks your not behind it i.e you have a bad connection

An engineer posted a video that it DOES NOT break on los, and you say it is!??! It’s your word against a recorded actual pull.

I would be willing to test with you. It can be broken by LoS and parried as well.

Done. Disc?

[Secrets]

Keep pull how it is, for both Mara and WL (as WL gets 65 ft pounch, Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce)

So you are playing destro now

Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce? How about elves getting gits run away then and WL the armor pierce ignore and self hot of mara brutality and of course the mara aoe knock down and free 50% armor pierce tactic for most of their attacks and dual wield for more procs. How about that?

Seriously now, what are you smoking? That mara pull as it is right now is super broken and completely unfair for the receiving side.

There was a time where the WL pull had no range at all. It was the same unfair stuff.

There was never a time when WL pull had unlimited range. Well, at least not since 2017 on emu when I started playing my WL here. If there was, it was a bug. A lot of the behaviors players became accustomed to since RoR were bugs in the server code, and not intended.

As for the actual balance issues-

WL already has one of the biggest bits of burst with their 10s cooldown abilities, and consistent AOE with their AOE spec being their best ST spec. Mara has basically nothing.

Mara has no solo ability outside of being a nuisance, their AOE knockdown is a free immunity outside of specific 24 man situations, the 50% armor pen tactic is negated by the fact that WL has virtually 100% armor pen from whirling axe / slashing blade alone (which also consistently removes taunts), and Mara's pull is their only useful ability left beyond their passive debuffs, which I guess BG gets anyways?

I'd argue that even Chosens can do more damage and utility - in both solo and in a party - due to their armor class (plate), their ability to deal consistent spiritual damage, and the obvious buffs they bring.

WL's only gripe should be that Mara gets consistent uptime on their crit damage tactic and is not dependent on the pet for uptime on their crit damage tactic.

But Mara also does not get Coordinated Strike, Pack Assault, Whirling Axe (their version honestly sucks ass). The ability to stay alive on your own does not make a class 'good'.

Most of these concerns are moot, anyways - as balance will likely wildly change in the abilities update when most abilities get reverted to 1.4.8 balancing.

"You must be playing Destro!"

...I don't even have a Mara. If I didn't have advance knowledge that the ability changes would drastically change everything (and I'd actually have time to play the game), I'd play WE. You'd be stupid to play a Mara unless you enjoy pulling someone from 200 ft. That's their only purpose at this point; to pull someone to their death while better classes (like Witch Elf, or Choppa) actually secure the kill. And that weird stutter step against Order WBs that never works thing that involves knocking people down on engage that gives them free immunities that destro does. Like, wait till order is at 20-50% due to an AOE push, then hit the ability, people.

[Garamore]

Mainly as order are running away so we can catch some...