Gap Closer Balance

[insolenz]

Most of these concerns are moot, anyways - as balance will likely wildly change in the abilities update when most abilities get reverted to 1.4.8 balancing.

Hello. Can you link 1.4.8 patch notes? It would be quite helpful to refresh what it was.

[lumpi33]

Keep pull how it is, for both Mara and WL (as WL gets 65 ft pounch, Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce)

So you are playing destro now

Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce? How about elves getting gits run away then and WL the armor pierce ignore and self hot of mara brutality and of course the mara aoe knock down and free 50% armor pierce tactic for most of their attacks and dual wield for more procs. How about that?

Seriously now, what are you smoking? That mara pull as it is right now is super broken and completely unfair for the receiving side.

There was a time where the WL pull had no range at all. It was the same unfair stuff.

There was never a time when WL pull had unlimited range. Well, at least not since 2017 on emu when I started playing my WL here. If there was, it was a bug. A lot of the behaviors players became accustomed to since RoR were bugs in the server code, and not intended.

As for the actual balance issues-

WL already has one of the biggest bits of burst with their 10s cooldown abilities, and consistent AOE with their AOE spec being their best ST spec. Mara has basically nothing.

Mara has no solo ability outside of being a nuisance, their AOE knockdown is a free immunity outside of specific 24 man situations, the 50% armor pen tactic is negated by the fact that WL has virtually 100% armor pen from whirling axe / slashing blade alone (which also consistently removes taunts), and Mara's pull is their only useful ability left beyond their passive debuffs, which I guess BG gets anyways?

I'd argue that even Chosens can do more damage and utility - in both solo and in a party - due to their armor class (plate), their ability to deal consistent spiritual damage, and the obvious buffs they bring.

WL's only gripe should be that Mara gets consistent uptime on their crit damage tactic and is not dependent on the pet for uptime on their crit damage tactic.

But Mara also does not get Coordinated Strike, Pack Assault, Whirling Axe (their version honestly sucks ass). The ability to stay alive on your own does not make a class 'good'.

Most of these concerns are moot, anyways - as balance will likely wildly change in the abilities update when most abilities get reverted to 1.4.8 balancing.

"You must be playing Destro!"

...I don't even have a Mara. If I didn't have advance knowledge that the ability changes would drastically change everything (and I'd actually have time to play the game), I'd play WE. You'd be stupid to play a Mara unless you enjoy pulling someone from 200 ft. That's their only purpose at this point; to pull someone to their death while better classes (like Witch Elf, or Choppa) actually secure the kill. And that weird stutter step against Order WBs that never works thing that involves knocking people down on engage that gives them free immunities that destro does. Like, wait till order is at 20-50% due to an AOE push, then hit the ability, people.

I really hope that you have nothing to do with the balance patch because what you are saying here is complete nonsense.

"Maras have basically nothing". Come on man. Ridiculous. They have a great toolkit and good damage. Mara is a very strong class.

[Asderas27]

Thank you Secrets for once again proving that r0r devs are pretty consistently clueless for just about everything on the server they have worked on.

[Minisynn]

Keep pull how it is, for both Mara and WL (as WL gets 65 ft pounch, Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce)

So you are playing destro now

Mara gets longer, more consistent pulls in turn for not having Pounce? How about elves getting gits run away then and WL the armor pierce ignore and self hot of mara brutality and of course the mara aoe knock down and free 50% armor pierce tactic for most of their attacks and dual wield for more procs. How about that?

Seriously now, what are you smoking? That mara pull as it is right now is super broken and completely unfair for the receiving side.

There was a time where the WL pull had no range at all. It was the same unfair stuff.

There was never a time when WL pull had unlimited range. Well, at least not since 2017 on emu when I started playing my WL here. If there was, it was a bug. A lot of the behaviors players became accustomed to since RoR were bugs in the server code, and not intended.

As for the actual balance issues-

WL already has one of the biggest bits of burst with their 10s cooldown abilities, and consistent AOE with their AOE spec being their best ST spec. Mara has basically nothing.

Mara has no solo ability outside of being a nuisance, their AOE knockdown is a free immunity outside of specific 24 man situations, the 50% armor pen tactic is negated by the fact that WL has virtually 100% armor pen from whirling axe / slashing blade alone (which also consistently removes taunts), and Mara's pull is their only useful ability left beyond their passive debuffs, which I guess BG gets anyways?

I'd argue that even Chosens can do more damage and utility - in both solo and in a party - due to their armor class (plate), their ability to deal consistent spiritual damage, and the obvious buffs they bring.

WL's only gripe should be that Mara gets consistent uptime on their crit damage tactic and is not dependent on the pet for uptime on their crit damage tactic.

But Mara also does not get Coordinated Strike, Pack Assault, Whirling Axe (their version honestly sucks ass). The ability to stay alive on your own does not make a class 'good'.

Most of these concerns are moot, anyways - as balance will likely wildly change in the abilities update when most abilities get reverted to 1.4.8 balancing.

"You must be playing Destro!"

...I don't even have a Mara. If I didn't have advance knowledge that the ability changes would drastically change everything (and I'd actually have time to play the game), I'd play WE. You'd be stupid to play a Mara unless you enjoy pulling someone from 200 ft. That's their only purpose at this point; to pull someone to their death while better classes (like Witch Elf, or Choppa) actually secure the kill. And that weird stutter step against Order WBs that never works thing that involves knocking people down on engage that gives them free immunities that destro does. Like, wait till order is at 20-50% due to an AOE push, then hit the ability, people.

To say nothing about actual class balance, Maras probably have the single biggest utility toolkit out of any DPS in the entire game.
Pull with no prerequisite pet, baseline heal debuff with tactic to increase it from 25 to 50%, baseline toughness debuff, 50% crit damage increase tactic, AP regen debuff, AP drain, armour debuff, wounds debuff, 25% damage steroid with no positional requirement unlike WL, enchantment remover, morale drain, parry + block debuff baseline, ST KD on disruption baseline, strength + toughness steroid baseline, AOE interrupt baseline, AOE WS + INI debuff, AOE KD with no prerequisite turret placement unlike Engi/Magus (which is one of the most valuable pieces of utility in warband play in the game, not useless or extremely situational like you said), and a 50% armour penetration tactic that applies to *every* single one of their stance spells rather than just 50% increase for whirling axe + slashing blade.

There's a reason you'll pretty much never see a destro warband without one, and why they're such a powerful class in 6-man ST party lineups - their kit is immense and in the hands of a decent player they can pump out damage at the same level as a WL, though not quite as bursty - but with the added benefit of a metric **** of extra utility to compensate for that fact. And I'm not crying about Maras being OP, I play both Mara and WL and am well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of both classes; I'm just saying that the implication that Maras are weak or lacking as a whole in comparison to WL is laughable, especially when it comes to WB play, and that half of the points you made here are just outright wrong

[Baaldr]

Secrets is right though. What does a mara bring besides the pull that your BG or choppa/we dosent have?
What 6 man ranked grp runs a mara over we/choppa?
What destro wb wouldnt replace there maras with WLs if they had the choice?

[Minisynn]

Secrets is right though. What does a mara bring besides the pull that your BG or choppa/we dosent have?
What 6 man ranked grp runs a mara over we/choppa?
What destro wb wouldnt replace there maras with WLs if they had the choice?

An AOE KD and an AOE initiative debuff for a start? AoE morale drain, AP drain/regen debuff, or both? ST KD for casters? AOE interrupt for slayer Ret Bomb or backline disruption?

And hard to say since nobody plays ranked anymore, but I can't remember the last time we did a city vs a premade that wasn't running at least one Mara. FMJ also run one in one of their city ST parties almost every time we play against them.

What destro wb wouldnt replace there maras with WLs if they had the choice?

Uh, any with sense, I think? The reason you bring WLs to a WB is for AOE Heal Debuff, and for AOE interrupts. The main reason you bring a Mara to WBs is for AOE KD and AOE Interrupts, as well as picks on priority targets.

They're really not that different in that regard, and their damage output is similar when played well - the main difference is that Mara damage is a lot more frontloaded which actually synergises better with Chopper/Sorc frontloaded damage than the DoT build 99% of WL players use in WB play; especially when combined with well used AOE KDs

[zulnam]

if you have bad latency some pulls can look like half way across the map.

Why would you want to nerf something so beautiful? If anything, it should be made a feature: 65 feet range to cast, but then 10 seconds build up until it actually pulls, from any distance. And have the benny hill theme play when it eventually pulls.

[fontin]

ask azeyune why he play WL alot more than his mara. its hilarious ppl still whining about mara as if this is 2013.... the class is garbage tier now. barely anyone plays it

[Baaldr]

Secrets is right though. What does a mara bring besides the pull that your BG or choppa/we dosent have?
What 6 man ranked grp runs a mara over we/choppa?
What destro wb wouldnt replace there maras with WLs if they had the choice?

An AOE KD and an AOE initiative debuff for a start? AoE morale drain, AP drain/regen debuff, or both? ST KD for casters? AOE interrupt for slayer Ret Bomb or backline disruption?

And hard to say since nobody plays ranked anymore, but I can't remember the last time we did a city vs a premade that wasn't running at least one Mara. FMJ also run one in one of their city ST parties almost every time we play against them.

What destro wb wouldnt replace there maras with WLs if they had the choice?

Uh, any with sense, I think? The reason you bring WLs to a WB is for AOE Heal Debuff, and for AOE interrupts. The main reason you bring a Mara to WBs is for AOE KD and AOE Interrupts, as well as picks on priority targets.

They're really not that different in that regard, and their damage output is similar when played well - the main difference is that Mara damage is a lot more frontloaded which actually synergises better with Chopper/Sorc frontloaded damage than the DoT build 99% of WL players use in WB play; especially when combined with well used AOE KDs

The AOE ini debuff a BO can cover just fine, AOE morale drain I doubt anybody uses after the nerfs to it, ST KD is truelly trashtier and only works on disrupt and does not tell you who will be KD'd good waste of an immunity.
The dmg is similair on the scoreboard but the WL can provide alot more bursty dmg and with far greater mobility.
But the AOE KD can be nice, So lets say you bring one to a wb for that and that alone. Puts it in a good spot next to engi and magus.

[oaliaen]

Thank you Secrets for once again proving that r0r devs are pretty consistently clueless for just about everything on the server they have worked on.

this balance patch will be the checkmate of the future of this server..hope they win it.