Reduced armor penetration.

[dalen]

But nobody, has 100% armour pen. Most I've seen is around 50-75%.

Thats sadly not true. WE/WH can reach 100% arpen.

Hello.
So i was wondering, how does reduced armor penetration work if somone has more armor pen than the cap?
I mean if someone has 100% armor pen (but the cap is 75 or 80 i dont remember) and i have 10% reduced armor pen, does that 10% lowers his ap from 100% to 90% so he's still hitting the cap ?
Also how common is it for destro physical dps'es to hit the cap on armor penetration ?

Armor provides physical mitigation up to 75% of attack you receive. Going above that helps offset armor debuffs and % based arpen of the attacker.
Armor penetration stat itself doesnt have any cap.
Reduced arpen works as direct counter to attacker arpen and generally provides good value.
Arpen example: 50% mitigation defender gets hit by 50% arpen attacker, that leaves him with 25% mitigation of inititial dmg.
There are various skills and tactics that affect arpen in a bit messy way, some are additive, some multiplicative, neither will tell you so its up to players to figure it out for now.

There's armour penetration and then there's ignores/bypass armour. The WE tactic (assuming we're on about Bleeding Edge) says it increases armour penetration so it will be additive with the armour pen from WS, the "armour penentration" stat on gear, etc.

The Marauder's Piercing Bite tactic bypasses 50% armour, so it applies to 50% of what is left after armour pen. The WH/WE ability that bypasses 100% of armour works like Piercing Bite. A good test - which can only be done on order abilities - is to see what effect the Marauder's monstrosity proc does to the attack as Monstrosity ignores all armour pen from attackers. However, the WH 100% bypass ability still does full damage as it's not armour pen, but instead bypasses what's left afterwards.

According to the tooltip, Powerful Draw applies to armour pen so should be additive with all other armour pen. If it's multiplicative currently then that sounds like a bug rather than a feature.

This is currently a bit of a weird mix, with 7 abilities/tactics working additive like Bleeding Edge, and 8 working multiplicative like Piercing Bite. Back on live they were all applying to what is left after armour pen (apart from abilities that ignore a fixed amount of armor, like Impale etc that are a third category).

It would be both simpler for players and better for retaining the proper value of the weapon skill stat if they all just additive with the armour pen from WS, like Bleeding Edge. But in most cases the values would need to be lower for that, +50% additive armor pen is a huge bonus, equivalent of ~700 WS.

So most likely we will change all of them to be additive, but with values adjusted to make sense. This would also apply to abilities that ignore a percentage of armor, like Precision Strike.

[Omegus]

Thats sadly not true. WE/WH can reach 100% arpen.



Armor provides physical mitigation up to 75% of attack you receive. Going above that helps offset armor debuffs and % based arpen of the attacker.
Armor penetration stat itself doesnt have any cap.
Reduced arpen works as direct counter to attacker arpen and generally provides good value.
Arpen example: 50% mitigation defender gets hit by 50% arpen attacker, that leaves him with 25% mitigation of inititial dmg.
There are various skills and tactics that affect arpen in a bit messy way, some are additive, some multiplicative, neither will tell you so its up to players to figure it out for now.

There's armour penetration and then there's ignores/bypass armour. The WE tactic (assuming we're on about Bleeding Edge) says it increases armour penetration so it will be additive with the armour pen from WS, the "armour penentration" stat on gear, etc.

The Marauder's Piercing Bite tactic bypasses 50% armour, so it applies to 50% of what is left after armour pen. The WH/WE ability that bypasses 100% of armour works like Piercing Bite. A good test - which can only be done on order abilities - is to see what effect the Marauder's monstrosity proc does to the attack as Monstrosity ignores all armour pen from attackers. However, the WH 100% bypass ability still does full damage as it's not armour pen, but instead bypasses what's left afterwards.

According to the tooltip, Powerful Draw applies to armour pen so should be additive with all other armour pen. If it's multiplicative currently then that sounds like a bug rather than a feature.

This is currently a bit of a weird mix, with 7 abilities/tactics working additive like Bleeding Edge, and 8 working multiplicative like Piercing Bite. Back on live they were all applying to what is left after armour pen (apart from abilities that ignore a fixed amount of armor, like Impale etc that are a third category).

It would be both simpler for players and better for retaining the proper value of the weapon skill stat if they all just additive with the armour pen from WS, like Bleeding Edge. But in most cases the values would need to be lower for that, +50% additive armor pen is a huge bonus, equivalent of ~700 WS.

So most likely we will change all of them to be additive, but with values adjusted to make sense. This would also apply to abilities that ignore a percentage of armor, like Precision Strike.

Out of those 7 additive, how many explicitly say "armour penetration" in the tooltip, and out of the other 8 how many phrase it as something like "ignores x% armour" / "bypass x% armour"? Just wondering if there was any ever proper consistency between the tooltip wording and the effect in the ability DB...

[dalen]

...

Out of those 7 additive, how many explicitly say "armour penetration" in the tooltip, and out of the other 8 how many phrase it as something like "ignores x% armour" / "bypass x% armour"? Just wondering if there was any ever proper consistency between the tooltip wording and the effect in the ability DB...

There's not really any way of telling from the tooltip I think. But here's the list of how it currently works:

Multiplicative:
- Piercing Bite
- Hack and Slash
- Powerful Draw
- Rune-Etched Axe
- Precision Strike
- Murderous Wrath

Additive:
- Armor-piercing Rounds
- Sigmar's Wrath
- Drowning in Blood
- Bleeding Edge
- Blessed Blade
- Seal of Destruction
- Elixir of Insane Power

[Omegus]

...

Out of those 7 additive, how many explicitly say "armour penetration" in the tooltip, and out of the other 8 how many phrase it as something like "ignores x% armour" / "bypass x% armour"? Just wondering if there was any ever proper consistency between the tooltip wording and the effect in the ability DB...

There's not really any way of telling from the tooltip I think. But here's the list of how it currently works:

Multiplicative:
- Piercing Bite
- Hack and Slash
- Powerful Draw
- Rune-Etched Axe
- Precision Strike
- Murderous Wrath

Additive:
- Armor-piercing Rounds
- Sigmar's Wrath
- Drowning in Blood
- Bleeding Edge
- Blessed Blade
- Seal of Destruction
- Elixir of Insane Power

Thank you, I checked them all and yep, turns out the tooltips are useless for determining if it's additive to pen or a seperate multiplier:

Piercing Bite: bypass/ignore
Hack and Slash: bypass/ignore
Powerful Draw: armour penetration
Rune-Etched Axe: bypass/ignore
Precision Strike: bypass/ignore
Murderous Wrath: bypass/ignore

Armor-piercing Rounds: bypass/ignore
Sigmar's Wrath: bypass/ignore
Drowning in Blood: bypass/ignore
Bleeding Edge: armour penetration
Blessed Blade: armour penetration
Seal of Destruction: bypass/ignore
Elixir of Insane Power: bypass/ignore

Not sure how much is from live and how much is from ROR, but either way the end result is what we have now. Thank you for posting the list, at least we know how things currently work

[rejndjer]

excuse me, but how can a 125% armor target have 0% if hit by "100% armor pene" attacker. since 75% armor pene "hard cap"? so in that case 125% armor defender should still have 31.25% mitigation versus "100%" armor penetration target. if i calculated everything right
note: i used 100% armor penet. as guaranteed 75% armor penetration.

Armor penetration stat itself doesnt have any cap.

100% arpen attacker on 5 or 5000 armor will ignore entirety of it. 100% of what defender have. If defender have 300000% armor mitigation it will still arpen ALL of that.
Armor mitigation cap is on defender side and the check happens at the end of all buffs and debuffs applied.

thanks for pointing out that there's no cap on armor penetration, i thought it was capped at 75%

and thanks Dalen for confirming which buffs are multiplicative and which one are additive

[Butzinjo]

interesting. thank you very much for clarifying this!

There are also more of that, like the old BG skill (before rework) Force of Fury (multiplicative to additive -%crit calculation) or WEs Septic Blade (same here afaik).

To confirm some of the input made in posts before:

Afaik
there's a 75% hard cap for physical damage reduction
your %damage reduction through armor - enemy %armor penetration = your physical damage reduction

125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 56% enemy armor penetration = 69% physical damage reduction left for you
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 100% enemy armor penetration = 25% physical damage reduction left for you
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 25% enemy armor penetration = 75% physical damage reduction left for you (hard cap)

just remember (as said before): often skill based % armor penetration doesn't stack additivly but multiplicativly instead (and are often used to enable builds without any WS for physical damage archetypes like marauders piercing bite monstro builds so its balanced for monstro builds but much less useful for the other 2 trees).

If wrong, please correct me.

No, you got the numbers wrong. Using your own examples:
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 56% enemy armor penetration = 55% physical damage reduction left for you
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 100% enemy armor penetration = 0% physical damage reduction left for you
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 25% enemy armor penetration = 75% physical damage reduction left for you (hard cap)

excuse me, but how can a 125% armor target have 0% if hit by "100% armor pene" attacker. since 75% armor pene "hard cap"? so in that case 125% armor defender should still have 31.25% mitigation versus "100%" armor penetration target. if i calculated everything right
note: i used 100% armor penet. as guaranteed 75% armor penetration.

I was a bit confused too. The problem, I think, is that he calculates it the way I think it "should be" but doesn't explain it. I mean it's armor ignore, not damage reduction ignore.

For simple numbers:
1000 Armor reduces damage by 125% - 56% armor penetration = 560 less Armor
440 Armor reduces damage by 55%

Did I understand that correctly then?

And further:
multiplicative = (Armor - WS) - "piercing bite"
additive = Armor - (WS + "Blessed Blade")

Or am I wrong with that?

[Omegus]

There are also more of that, like the old BG skill (before rework) Force of Fury (multiplicative to additive -%crit calculation) or WEs Septic Blade (same here afaik).

To confirm some of the input made in posts before:

Afaik
there's a 75% hard cap for physical damage reduction
your %damage reduction through armor - enemy %armor penetration = your physical damage reduction

125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 56% enemy armor penetration = 69% physical damage reduction left for you
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 100% enemy armor penetration = 25% physical damage reduction left for you
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 25% enemy armor penetration = 75% physical damage reduction left for you (hard cap)

just remember (as said before): often skill based % armor penetration doesn't stack additivly but multiplicativly instead (and are often used to enable builds without any WS for physical damage archetypes like marauders piercing bite monstro builds so its balanced for monstro builds but much less useful for the other 2 trees).

If wrong, please correct me.

No, you got the numbers wrong. Using your own examples:
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 56% enemy armor penetration = 55% physical damage reduction left for you
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 100% enemy armor penetration = 0% physical damage reduction left for you
125% physical damage reduction (your armor) - 25% enemy armor penetration = 75% physical damage reduction left for you (hard cap)

excuse me, but how can a 125% armor target have 0% if hit by "100% armor pene" attacker. since 75% armor pene "hard cap"? so in that case 125% armor defender should still have 31.25% mitigation versus "100%" armor penetration target. if i calculated everything right
note: i used 100% armor penet. as guaranteed 75% armor penetration.

I was a bit confused too. The problem, I think, is that he calculates it the way I think it "should be" but doesn't explain it. I mean it's armor ignore, not damage reduction ignore.

For simple numbers:
1000 Armor reduces damage by 125% - 56% armor penetration = 560 less Armor
440 Armor reduces damage by 55%

Did I understand that correctly then?

And further:
multiplicative = (Armor - WS) - "piercing bite"
additive = Armor - (WS + "Blessed Blade")

Or am I wrong with that?

Not quite how I would write out the formulas but yes that's the basics. To use real numbers, if the attacker is rank 40 then 4400 armour = 100% physical damage mitigation.

5500 armour = 125% physical damage mitigation vs a R40 attacker

Assuming 56% armour penetration, 56% in decimal notation is 0.56. To apply this to the 5500 armour you subtract 0.56 from 1.0 to get the "multiplier" (0.44) and then multiply 5500 by 0.44 which leaves 2420 armour, which is 55% physical damage mitigation.

For abilities which apply additional additive or multiplicative armour reduction:

Additive: the % value of the debuff is added to the armour penetration % before being converted into a single multiplier. Assuming the additive buff was 25% and the existing armour penetration was 56%, you now have 81% armour penetration which gets converted into a multiplier of 0.19. 5500 * 0.19 = 1045 armour, or 23.75% physical damage mitigation.

Multiplicative: to my knowledge, the % value of the debuff is converted into its own multiplier and applied after armour penetration (or before, the result is the same). Assuming the multiplicative debuff is 25%, then this would be a multiplier of 0.75. Combined with 56% armour penetration (0.44 multiplier) and the result would be: 5500 * 0.44 * 0.75 = 1815 armour, or 41.25% physical damage mitigation.

This could also be 5500 * 0.75 * 0.44 as the result is still 1815, as is 0.75 * 5500 * 0.44 or any other reordering.