Is reward model driving current population inbalance

[Shanell]

And then suddenly nobody wants to do keep pushes and everyone blobs up to vacuum up kills.

I can't stress enough how I find idea of that much more attractive than moving in empty zone from one BO to another BO to get boxes to keep and ocasionally 48 players meet 2-3 players and annihilate them and this for 1 hour before standing near keep_door_1 for 15 minutes to stand nead keep_door_2 for next 15 minutes to be able to - maybe, if stars are alligned - to kill some people who decided to stay at 3rd floor.
That's now RvR. That's borderline PvE.

I am up for chaotic pug vs pug blobed up in one zone killing each other and getting items. crests and fun.

[Scottx125]

And then suddenly nobody wants to do keep pushes and everyone blobs up to vacuum up kills.

I can't stress enough how I find idea of that much more attractive than moving in empty zone from one BO to another BO to get boxes to keep and ocasionally 48 players meet 2-3 players and annihilate them and this for 1 hour before standing near keep_door_1 for 15 minutes to stand nead keep_door_2 for next 15 minutes to be able to - maybe, if stars are alligned - to kill some people who decided to stay at 3rd floor.
That's now RvR. That's borderline PvE.

I am up for chaotic pug vs pug blobed up in one zone killing each other and getting items. crests and fun.

Unfortunately that's not how the game is designed. It's designed to have coordinated groups attack keeps to advance the RVR Campaign. As of now the RVR campaign means absolutely nothing and hence people are like "What's the point we're just giving free bags if we lose". You also fail to realise, even if we move away completely from keep pushes. If people keep getting wiped by the same blob again and again, they'll simply log off, or afk in the WC until the situation changes or they'll play something else. That's not healthy for the game.

[Gerggregsson]

We need actual Tiers. Something like T1 for lvls 1-12. T2 13-26. T3 27-39...
But with player amounts we have, probably should be T1 for 1-19. T2-3 for 20-39/under rr45 and T4 should be lvl 40/45.

No.
This is a terrible idea. Reason dev's merged tiers was because pop is too low.
In early days of ROR most of Tier1-3 were empty and people didnt have enough numbers to pull off sieges.
I remember back in 2012 on live that when I was levelling through T2-T3 that I discovered most rvr zones were empty, as a result many people just ignored them and carried on to continue solo pve levelling to rush to endgame T4.
Even with those adjustments, the pop currently is too low anyway.
Not to mention its taking content away from T4, already stretching thin what this game has to offer endgame regarding replayable content.

Some things need to be gated. You should get something from Fortress+City purple/blue bags that are Boe And Wpns/cloaks that have procs and cant get them anywhere else. These would be Bop ofc. Its weird how i miss the first iteration of city siege which end goal was PVE. Stage I was PvP and if you won, you got loot rolls, invader AND purple bag wpns with procs and 60 dps. Stage 2 was Warlord Lords, same thing but 63 dps with procs in purple bags. Then on the way to kill the king instance Heros and Lords dropped 66 dps wpns with procs and then to King itself and that dropped sovereign, nothing else.

Heck no. Unfortunately, a few out-of-touch veterans here still continue to whine about liking some outdated 2008 nostalgia where everything bis was gatekeeped, but it was removed for a reason here, many fresh/pug people were getting blocked from getting gear because of elite bis premades who farmed pugs in cities, preventing non-vet players from getting geared, widening the gear creep and preventing casual players from ever having a remote chance to get bis gear.

New 2023 mmorpg players nowadays who join the game or on the fence researching this game wouldn't be motivated by your proposed reversal, causing retention rate of new players to decline even more.

Your change would hurt the game even more so in today's game climate faction-wise:
Order wins majority of forts, especially on NA Destro where they rarely win any forts and hardly any cities at all.

Your suggestion would prevent NA Destro from getting geared, increasing the roflstomp from overpopulated NA order in terms of pvp content (rvr, scenarios, and cities) causing more Destro to quit or reroll order to achieve gear otherwise virtually unattainable on Destro.

[Sinisterror]

We need actual Tiers. Something like T1 for lvls 1-12. T2 13-26. T3 27-39...
But with player amounts we have, probably should be T1 for 1-19. T2-3 for 20-39/under rr45 and T4 should be lvl 40/45.

No.
This is a terrible idea. Reason dev's merged tiers was because pop is too low.
In early days of ROR most of Tier1-3 were empty and people didnt have enough numbers to pull off sieges.
I remember back in 2012 on live that when I was levelling through T2-T3 that I discovered most rvr zones were empty, as a result many people just ignored them and carried on to continue solo pve levelling to rush to endgame T4.
Even with those adjustments, the pop currently is too low anyway.
Not to mention its taking content away from T4, already stretching thin what this game has to offer endgame regarding replayable content.

Some things need to be gated. You should get something from Fortress+City purple/blue bags that are Boe And Wpns/cloaks that have procs and cant get them anywhere else. These would be Bop ofc. Its weird how i miss the first iteration of city siege which end goal was PVE. Stage I was PvP and if you won, you got loot rolls, invader AND purple bag wpns with procs and 60 dps. Stage 2 was Warlord Lords, same thing but 63 dps with procs in purple bags. Then on the way to kill the king instance Heros and Lords dropped 66 dps wpns with procs and then to King itself and that dropped sovereign, nothing else.

Heck no. Unfortunately, a few out-of-touch veterans here still continue to whine about liking some outdated 2008 nostalgia where everything bis was gatekeeped, but it was removed for a reason here, many fresh/pug people were getting blocked from getting gear because of elite bis premades who farmed pugs in cities, preventing non-vet players from getting geared, widening the gear creep and preventing casual players from ever having a remote chance to get bis gear.

New 2023 mmorpg players nowadays who join the game or on the fence researching this game wouldn't be motivated by your proposed reversal, causing retention rate of new players to decline even more.

Your change would hurt the game even more so in today's game climate faction-wise:
Order wins majority of forts, especially on NA Destro where they rarely win any forts and hardly any cities at all.

Your suggestion would prevent NA Destro from getting geared, increasing the roflstomp from overpopulated NA order in terms of pvp content (rvr, scenarios, and cities) causing more Destro to quit or reroll order to achieve gear otherwise virtually unattainable on Destro.

: D Nothing you say about what i want is true? I never said that actual sets should be gated, hell no. This crest system is much better than the old one. BUT i Do believe if there is Proc wpns/cloaks in purple bags that you cant buy anywhere or get them anywhere else it would help peoples interest in doing them. I also dont want to get rid off personal loots BUT i do want the old loot system on top of the personal and that would give actual gear pieces in gold bags and purple bags would give those proc wpns im talking about.

So i mean what is the problem? you get everything you get now but extra is possible + forts and cities, if they had good proc items on purple bags (not bis or set pieces) i def wouyld have more interest in doing them.

Im definetely not one of those "Vets" who want it hard because the BS reason of " Because i had to do it you have to do it too " I hate that mentality, and i always say to new people if i see them not using pots or talismans or anythjing wrong or not helpful on them, i will tell them what will help i will never insult someone because their lack of knowledge. It is interesting that some people reakt to my helping thgem with insane profanity... It's sad there is so low self-esteem on someone that they start to harass you if you try to help=) Also because i say its weird how i miss the first iteration of City Siege whhich was PVE and then i say i probably miss it because of the ccoordination or "brotherhood" feeling of what that gave me. I never said that iteration should be in RoR i was just in nostalgia mode=)

EDIT; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8zvFSdIsF4 There is my dps dok from 2017 or 2018. And the game actually worked better than it does now and population was so much more heallthier than its now.

[Wyzard]

it was all downhill after BO ticks were removed. it was the unsung glue holding functional rvr together, removed without thought, leading to a cascade of changing behaviours and resulting in what we see now

you wanted to vilify players for "just sitting on BOs"? well great, now they just sit in keeps where you can't even kill them. box running is mind numbing

agree with this 100%

[Scottx125]

it was all downhill after BO ticks were removed. it was the unsung glue holding functional rvr together, removed without thought, leading to a cascade of changing behaviours and resulting in what we see now

you wanted to vilify players for "just sitting on BOs"? well great, now they just sit in keeps where you can't even kill them. box running is mind numbing

agree with this 100%

I would also say guaranteed scheduled cities didn't help. I agree they should be locked to set times when most people are on. But they shouldn't be guaranteed every 72h. People should have to actively push zones up unlock city. And cities should give the winners access to certain rewards like a special dungeon etc.

[Lion1986]

it was all downhill after BO ticks were removed. it was the unsung glue holding functional rvr together, removed without thought, leading to a cascade of changing behaviours and resulting in what we see now

you wanted to vilify players for "just sitting on BOs"? well great, now they just sit in keeps where you can't even kill them. box running is mind numbing

agree with this 100%

I would also say guaranteed scheduled cities didn't help. I agree they should be locked to set times when most people are on. But they shouldn't be guaranteed every 72h. People should have to actively push zones up unlock city. And cities should give the winners access to certain rewards like a special dungeon etc.

before they were like this and ppl complained that non eu time fellas, due to lack of pop, lost always the opportunity to run cities

[Scottx125]

agree with this 100%

I would also say guaranteed scheduled cities didn't help. I agree they should be locked to set times when most people are on. But they shouldn't be guaranteed every 72h. People should have to actively push zones up unlock city. And cities should give the winners access to certain rewards like a special dungeon etc.

before they were like this and ppl complained that non eu time fellas, due to lack of pop, lost always the opportunity to run cities

No, before they just happened after X contribution had been reached. What I'm proposing is a mixed system. You require X contribution and then after X time a city will spawn on a rotating time basis. Early EU/ Late EU(early NA) / Late NA. As far as I'm aware it didn't rotate through set times. It was just a fixed time after you reached the required resources, leading to most cities happening after EU prime, usually early morning. Or we could drop the frequency of cities and have the contribution towards that city act like a reward meter, unlocking more rewards the more keeps you push.

[Gerggregsson]

: D Nothing you say about what i want is true? I never said that actual sets should be gated, hell no. This crest system is much better than the old one. BUT i Do believe if there is Proc wpns/cloaks in purple bags that you cant buy anywhere or get them anywhere else it would help peoples interest in doing them. I also dont want to get rid off personal loots BUT i do want the old loot system on top of the personal and that would give actual gear pieces in gold bags and purple bags would give those proc wpns im talking about.

So i mean what is the problem? you get everything you get now but extra is possible + forts and cities, if they had good proc items on purple bags (not bis or set pieces) i def wouyld have more interest in doing them.

Im definetely not one of those "Vets" who want it hard because the BS reason of " Because i had to do it you have to do it too " I hate that mentality, and i always say to new people if i see them not using pots or talismans or anythjing wrong or not helpful on them, i will tell them what will help i will never insult someone because their lack of knowledge. It is interesting that some people reakt to my helping thgem with insane profanity... It's sad there is so low self-esteem on someone that they start to harass you if you try to help=) Also because i say its weird how i miss the first iteration of City Siege whhich was PVE and then i say i probably miss it because of the ccoordination or "brotherhood" feeling of what that gave me. I never said that iteration should be in RoR i was just in nostalgia mode=)

EDIT; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8zvFSdIsF4 There is my dps dok from 2017 or 2018. And the game actually worked better than it does now and population was so much more heallthier than its now.

Yes . Those are great valid points and I agree with you.
Forts and cities would be more interesting if they had some new kind of proc weapon/cloak in bags that players would be extra-motivated for as an alternative form of endgame gear. I think everyone would be excited about this.

So far, the only thing Forts have unlockable are those small amount of epic dyes in wb loot, but actual gear should help increase interest in forts. Not everyone would get guaranteed bags/loot and there is always the slower option of getting gear from crests. It's a win-win situation where everyone is happy.

Also, I know kings ( Tchar'zanek and Karl Franz) offer pve quests for city (to kill enemy king) but the reward is just some experience and small coin. How about these offer some crests instead like 10x crests such as the pvp reward from the T1 Ch1. SC/rvr quests?
Story-wise, city is a seriously important thing and should give at least something useful to players instead of garbage from such a quest.

Also hoping someday that devs will implement a new city: Karak-Eight-Peaks and Karaz-a-Karak rvr city fights. The fact that both of these cities have rvr keeps in their Middle Deep areas suggest Mythic Entertainment had the idea of using Underway entrances (Ungdrin Ankor for Destro in KZK and Skaven entrance for order in K8P) as starting points who fight defenders in the T2 keeps facing them: "Citadel of Grungni" keep for dwarves and "Ratbreaka Stand" keep for Greenskins. Another stage where they fight for BO's located in different wings of middle deeps. Another stage where they fight for BO's located in different wings on upper/main floor. Final stage where they fight king (Thorgrim Grudgebearer for Destro and Grumlok/Gazbag for order).

And cities should give the winners access to certain rewards like a special dungeon etc.

I think city rank should matter.
If there is a special dungeon that is unlockable with a 5-star city rank than it could be new dungeon maybe?. Not barring the other faction (who has a low city rank) from making CNT or BB/BE inaccessible. Faction imbalance blocking underdog with pve-city content that has always been there (CNT/BB/BE) would not be a good idea.

What about high city rank giving rewards besides a special dungeon like...
Discounts. Discounts on rvr gear regarding crest costs. Maybe a 20% discount on all crest gear if city is 5 star, 15% discount is 4 star, 10% discount if 3 star, 5% discount if 2 star?

Remember the special City PQ's from live? Those could be brought back ( I hope someday).These could be unlocked based on city-rank like 5-star.

[githappens]

I think city rank should matter.

Please no.
Destro already has crippled population outside of prime time and order has easy PvD. Punishing destro for not having 5 stars would make it only worse. We don't have server population to support such ideas.