remove surrender or add penalty

[bw10]

scenarios should have auto resolve like in total war games. why waste time playing at all. just let the the game decide who gets crests based on class comp, rr, gear and killboard stats

[Aethilmar]

Once upon a time (read live), "scenarios" actually had multiple different ways to go about winning. Some were better than others (and some were horrible), but they strove to provide different challenges.

The devs have steadily turned them into murder box simulators where all the action is pushed through limited points to force people to fight.

So, on average you get two primary outcomes:
1) complete roflstomp
2) futile stalemate

If this sounds like what also happened to RvR, well, it is. The current custodians have an obsession with preventing emergent play styles.

Maybe its philosophy.
Maybe its lack of staffing.
Maybe its dealing with player complaints about losing to novel strategies.
Maybe its all of the above.

Regardless, it just is.

[bittrio]

So, on average you get two primary outcomes:
1) complete roflstomp
2) futile stalemate

Exactly this.

[Sulorie]

So, on average you get two primary outcomes:
1) complete roflstomp
2) futile stalemate

Exactly this.

Exactly like on live.

[Nameless]

So, on average you get two primary outcomes:
1) complete roflstomp
2) futile stalemate

Exactly this.

Exactly like on live.

not exactly. On live i played almost fulltime on scens and there were not surrender so each scen was 15 mins. But you got safe spot for healers so rest could push while got guarantee heals and guard kills gain 2-3k /or even more/ renown on high rr players. So u got some reason try try to fight and there were more action. Not to mention solo kills.
All that is nerfed to the ground so now you got the choice to idle at wc or solo jump into the meat grinder without any chance to do other than die for a sec. And that happens even if u make premade and face stronger force.

Dont know how to stress it more clearly but barriers hinder both sides cos there are less fight and more surrender, less kills for both sides

[Sulorie]

not exactly. On live i played almost fulltime on scens and there were not surrender so each scen was 15 mins. But you got safe spot for healers so rest could push while got guarantee heals and guard kills gain 2-3k /or even more/ renown on high rr players. So u got some reason try try to fight and there were more action. Not to mention solo kills.
All that is nerfed to the ground so now you got the choice to idle at wc or solo jump into the meat grinder without any chance to do other than die for a sec. And that happens even if u make premade and face stronger force.

Dont know how to stress it more clearly but barriers hinder both sides cos there are less fight and more surrender, less kills for both sides

Yes, full 15 min of being farmed unless you wait in spawn - there was luckily no afk mechanic. Ofc you were able to go back into spawn, no question, the barriers in ROR are a bad change but the match quality wasn't any better.
Out of group play was more rewarding back then.

[Aethilmar]

not exactly. On live i played almost fulltime on scens and there were not surrender so each scen was 15 mins. But you got safe spot for healers so rest could push while got guarantee heals and guard kills gain 2-3k /or even more/ renown on high rr players. So u got some reason try try to fight and there were more action. Not to mention solo kills.
All that is nerfed to the ground so now you got the choice to idle at wc or solo jump into the meat grinder without any chance to do other than die for a sec. And that happens even if u make premade and face stronger force.

Dont know how to stress it more clearly but barriers hinder both sides cos there are less fight and more surrender, less kills for both sides

Yes, full 15 of being farmed unless you wait in spawn - there was luckily no afk mechanic. Ofc you were able to go back into spawn, no question, the barriers in ROR are a bad change but the match quality wasn't any better.
Out of group play was more rewarding back then.

Maybe a surrender feature would have been useful on live as well. And will not disagree that if you were being farmed already then you were probably going to lose no matter what.

But you could (sometimes with a couple of other willing folks) find ways to leverage your opponent's smug aggressiveness into at least a temporary flip of circumstances and maybe get in a full wipe before they rallied again.

Ironically not having a surrender plus the less-linear objectives in some cases (e.g. Thunder Valley) would force the other side to actually try to finish the SC instead of murder box you into submission for their "fast" win. And when they did that, they would often split up and that provided opportunity for counter play as well.

[georgehabadasher]

no, did pug-sc on order for one week now again and it is even with 4 minutes till surrender a waste of time. no heals - 500:0 getting farmed and receive a penalty means no more sc for lots of players.

I think there's just a big problem with people only wanting easy fights in this game.

During 2x renown people were more willing to fight and I won so many SCs where we had no healers since people actually gave it a go. Even if we lost we were able to charge them and generate many kills before going down.

The reason scenarios were better on double renown is because the population was so much higher. The matchmaking actually had a decent pool of players to draw from and could create reasonably close fights - if not always, then at least some of the time. During the double renown week, when I queued with a premade, I often found myself matched against other premades, even having double premades on both sides. I also found that queueing solo I frequently found myself against other PUGs. People tried harder in scenarios because they experienced that they had a reasonable shot at winning. Most people don't want guaranteed wins, they just want a chance at a decent fight.

The issue with scenarios in the current implementation of the game is that the only way to get decent rewards from them is to stomp. If you have close and relatively even scenarios, you end with 0-5 kills and 8-10 crests (assuming a 500-400 point score) after fifteen minutes. If you're stomping, you get 4-40 kills (depending on whether the other side keeps coming out or just surrenders) and get 10 crests for winning in 4-5 minutes.

The only way to improve scenarios is to better incentivize them so that the player pool which the matchmaking system draws from is increased--allowing better, fairer matches.
1) Redesign maps and spread out objectives so players don't blob, giving the losing side a chance to sneak some kills with local superiority in numbers/composition.
2) Tie higher renown and crest rewards to scoring points, to incentivize players to go after those objectives and split up.
3) Rollback previous changes which have negatively impacted scenarios. Re-add guards, remove barriers and re-add renown from guard kills.
4) Create comeback mechanics which help the losing side. Examples of this which are already in the game: The powerup in Lost Temple of Isha, the artifacts in Maw of Madness and Mourkain Temple which cause increasing damage to the player holding them, etc.

Player mentality isn't the problem with scenarios. The game has been designed--whether intentionally or unintentionally--for scenarios to disproportionally be one-sided stomps. It will take changes to the game to remedy the situation.

[bradbury111]

comebacks mechanics are one of the most hated mechanics in competitive games by players
barriers and guards were a good deterrence, would like to know why were removed, which evil scheme players were putting in place with them.

[Nefarian78]

Exactly like on live.

Live was only as bad only during the later half of it's lifespan whenever Sov became the average gear people had, which is exactly what happened on RoR post Vanq/Opp/Sent

RoR (And Live too) used to have a much more dynamic pug scene in Merc/Dominator/Oppressor because the multiplicative scaling of healing and damage was bottlenecked by raw stat amount which nobody yet had. Dps healers and tanks could easily burst down unguarded dps since armor and healing wasn't as high and tanks could afford to slot offensive talis, you could play with scuffed setups and still move the scenario forward but you can't do that anymore even in pug vs pug. Nowadays a tank that has less than 9.5k hp is a free kill, especially on Destro since you have to deal with Slayers not only ignoring your avoidance but also 60% of your armor with WS.

There are plenty of solutions and methods to recreate a dynamic pug scene aswell as solutions to avoid the FF at 11 but all of those involve things such as mapping which they currently do not have available, class balance which they seem to be still wandering in complete darkness if the ability preview is any indication and reward balance which they absolutely have no intention of changing or needed 7+ years before caving in and doing what the players wanted.

And besides all of that, they simply have no care or intention of having a healthy pug scene even though it's extremely important for the game's health. I say this as someone that plays exclusively in groups and doesn't touch pugs or solo with a 10 foot pole.