Patch Notes 06/02/2024

[Ysaran]

This is good for order, order meta is now less Salyer-oriented and this leaves space for other classes to shine.

Nothing has changed to justify that. Order meta is still slayer. Rampage was never truly an issue and reason why order stacks them. Rampage bypassing morales and making guard dmg unavoidable was RoRs version and gone for good. It untied with GCD and no longer dropping rage is quite a big buff. Strikethru values dont matter all that much and never did, slayer will still bypass all block/parry.
However it should go with avoidance channels nerf for all the destro tanks (keep in mind no such channels on order tanks).

IB new skill is physical damage while WAAAAGH is corporeal. IB has Armor debuff, BO doesn't have corporeal debuff beside WAAAGH. BG has CD reduction but Choppa doesnt have it anymore, so i still don't understund where the problem is. None shall pass is a channel, oathstone is fire and forget. also oathstone has way higher damage (way way higher). not sure what are your refering to with the last two points

GnM was ap pump initiator. IB warband role was to pump. At the moment this role is no longer possible to effectively fullfil with parry&crit buffs changes, better to take tactic on RP/WP with kotbs tiny aura. IB could pump two main AP starving dps - WL&SL to a reasonable amount. That was understandable and cool. Absolutely sure nor GnM/BE are coming back unless people change in charge of balance.

miniwagh IB got is lackluster and doesnt fit anywhere decently. It is not role defining ability and doesnt justify taking it or IB over SM atm. giving it elem debuff of same value as BOs corp debuff would introduce unique feature to e.g. further support BW. that would be comp/role defining ability. Same as it goes with corp debuff WAAAGH has boosting mSH and sorc (and most importantly procs!).

IB now slowly goes the same direction BO has suffered from for years, no role, no identity. That is where the problem is.

Not even talking about HB nerf as its just an absolute /facepalm. especially knowing why and how exactly it got nerfed.

Hope i made it more clear for you.

Order tank don't have avoidance channels because they don't need them. IB buffs parry and has block tactic, Kotbs has Vigilance and SM has Wall of Darting Steel. IB can still pump AP just fine, its rone is untouched. GnM was trash and it will come back (hopefully buffed) since the Devs said it will come back (and so far they kept their word). Corp Debuff on the new skill would be out of character for IB and as I said before IB already has the tools to maximize the damage (Armor Debuff and WS buff) so there is no reason to give Corp Debuff. Also, BW is in a good spot, it doesn't need a Corp Debuff to perform. HB is a filler you use between buffs, it shouldn't be your main source of damage. All the Tanks have seen their damage nerfed, it is only fair that IB follows the trand.

P.S. This is not the last balance patch. The world is not ending. There will be more changes incoming

[Jajcek12]

I also would have many questions about ballance if i would have in mind idealistic Utopia of ballance. In the proces of gamming i discovered that Utopia doesnt exist. From actual game “ballance” state and players retention we can deduce simple facts.
GIT GUD or play destro. This game ballance the level of hardness in itself. Each one of the side is proposition for differend gamming expierience and its dedicated to diferrend gaming expectation. And if all players will be informed and avere of this the fastest they will find its place on server.
Because i like competition(somthing that push me to be beather) i will play Order at that moment. But person who like to “casualy” play the game will go destro- simple. As fast each player will realise this, the fastest will fing side that meets his requirements.
Anyways its also right with fluff(funfiction) Endless mindless hordes of chaos vs decimated Order forces.
PS: yes my IB lost good tools – but i will adapt and find my place in battlefield- if it will be hard hmm- noone sayd somthing will be easy on order.

So whats the problem. - If game want to play me on hard mode i will take it. If someone want to make casual play – pick the correct side and dont expect that world will stop for you.

[Everdin]

Order tank don't have avoidance channels because they don't need them. IB buffs parry and has block tactic, Kotbs has Vigilance and SM has Wall of Darting Steel. IB can still pump AP just fine, its rone is untouched. GnM was trash and it will come back (hopefully buffed) since the Devs said it will come back (and so far they kept their word). Corp Debuff on the new skill would be out of character for IB and as I said before IB already has the tools to maximize the damage (Armor Debuff and WS buff) so there is no reason to give Corp Debuff. Also, BW is in a good spot, it doesn't need a Corp Debuff to perform. HB is a filler you use between buffs, it shouldn't be your main source of damage. All the Tanks have seen their damage nerfed, it is only fair that IB follows the trand.

P.S. This is not the last balance patch. The world is not ending. There will be more changes incoming

Why would corp debuff on IB be more out of character then on ork? Why are more damage increasing tools on ib be more hurtfull then on an blork (also armordebuff, also ws buff, even with "a little" oathfriend bonus for your defensiv target, while on no cooldown, so you can buff multiple groupmates). Just because you say it twice it wont make it better. Just because it's not usefull for IB itself it could be usefull on the oathfriend or group, it's not more usefull for blorc beside the debuff serves it's own ability and nothing else.

Mara pull has not unlimeted range rn, so i don't know what are you complaining about. IB new skill is physical damage while WAAAAGH is corporeal. IB has Armor debuff, BO doesn't have corporeal debuff beside WAAAGH. BG has CD reduction but Choppa doesnt have it anymore, so i still don't understund where the problem is. None shall pass is a channel, oathstone is fire and forget. also oathstone has way higher damage (way way higher). not sure what are your refering to with the last two points

Not unlimited, but again more then 65f

Not even talking about HB nerf as its just an absolute /facepalm. especially knowing why and how exactly it got nerfed.

I assume you can show is the numbers of why it was such a balanced ability and should have remained as is. And then take into accout the fact that you need to spend a lot less GCDs maintaining your buffs and the damage of the channel was buffed.

Maybe there should be a prove that it was inbalanced before changing it. I'm curious how do you want something proved as balaced? And how should he do so AFTER the patch?

[Ysaran]

Order tank don't have avoidance channels because they don't need them. IB buffs parry and has block tactic, Kotbs has Vigilance and SM has Wall of Darting Steel. IB can still pump AP just fine, its rone is untouched. GnM was trash and it will come back (hopefully buffed) since the Devs said it will come back (and so far they kept their word). Corp Debuff on the new skill would be out of character for IB and as I said before IB already has the tools to maximize the damage (Armor Debuff and WS buff) so there is no reason to give Corp Debuff. Also, BW is in a good spot, it doesn't need a Corp Debuff to perform. HB is a filler you use between buffs, it shouldn't be your main source of damage. All the Tanks have seen their damage nerfed, it is only fair that IB follows the trand.

P.S. This is not the last balance patch. The world is not ending. There will be more changes incoming

Why would corp debuff on IB be more out of character then on ork? Why are more damage increasing tools on ib be more hurtfull then on an blork (also armordebuff, also ws buff, even with "a little" oathfriend bonus for your defensiv target, while on no cooldown, so you can buff multiple groupmates). Just because you say it twice it wont make it better. Just because it's not usefull for IB itself it could be usefull on the oathfriend or group, it's not more usefull for blorc beside the debuff serves it's own ability and nothing else.

WAAAGH does Corp damage. If you don't debuff Corp then WAAAGH does too little damage. The same is no true for the IB. IB already has Armor debuff and self WS buff. IB already have all the tools needed to maximize the new skill damage

[normanis]

all dwarf nerfs are going into grudge book.
i understand ,because of race stereotip sm and bg got wispering wind?
ib got his main spam tool heavy blow 50% nerf
offc grumble and matter and bg equvalent where very op with all regen gear on server (no doubt about it)
why increase party auto attack byt not decrease auto attack on destro? (and how much damage its give +25% autoattack?)
+30% parry trikout and 25% block strikout while destro have higher avoidance and after pierce defences nerf. didnt checked now byt chosen has back good morale pump to spam m4. faster than order will get 1m.
oh well now destro tanks look not just cool byt also has better tools.
lets reduce order side tanks even more ;-(
p.s i understand that for the lich king is gived to bg because to have space in wb not just as crimson death spamer. byt why nerf order tanks? there is already lfg always need tanks on order side for rvr activities. ;-(
t1 i liked from troma finally t1 has some activity

[normanis]

WAAAGH does Corp damage. If you don't debuff Corp then WAAAGH does too little damage. The same is no true for the IB. IB already has Armor debuff and self WS buff. IB already have all the tools needed to maximize the new skill damage
[/quote]
black orc debuff corp resistence, mdps using jagged edge.
black orc is spiritual same as iron breaker.

[Everdin]

Order tank don't have avoidance channels because they don't need them. IB buffs parry and has block tactic, Kotbs has Vigilance and SM has Wall of Darting Steel. IB can still pump AP just fine, its rone is untouched. GnM was trash and it will come back (hopefully buffed) since the Devs said it will come back (and so far they kept their word). Corp Debuff on the new skill would be out of character for IB and as I said before IB already has the tools to maximize the damage (Armor Debuff and WS buff) so there is no reason to give Corp Debuff. Also, BW is in a good spot, it doesn't need a Corp Debuff to perform. HB is a filler you use between buffs, it shouldn't be your main source of damage. All the Tanks have seen their damage nerfed, it is only fair that IB follows the trand.

P.S. This is not the last balance patch. The world is not ending. There will be more changes incoming

Why would corp debuff on IB be more out of character then on ork? Why are more damage increasing tools on ib be more hurtfull then on an blork (also armordebuff, also ws buff, even with "a little" oathfriend bonus for your defensiv target, while on no cooldown, so you can buff multiple groupmates). Just because you say it twice it wont make it better. Just because it's not usefull for IB itself it could be usefull on the oathfriend or group, it's not more usefull for blorc beside the debuff serves it's own ability and nothing else.

WAAAGH does Corp damage. If you don't debuff Corp then WAAAGH does too little damage. The same is no true for the IB. IB already has Armor debuff and self WS buff. IB already have all the tools needed to maximize the new skill damage

Best way to deal with an ability that does to low damage is to give it an, of course only selfserving, resi debuff. Wish there would be an easier way, but no chance to make it physical damage (so orc can increase it damage like the mighty dwarven tank) or just increase it's value...

Waaaagh! debuffs corp damage to serve e.g. Sorc or WE, but keep telling yourself thats not the case.

[Haojin]

In this patch several key archetype abilities have changed minimum level, mostly moving down to lower levels so new players can get a feel for the class and archetype a bit earlier instead of waiting until level 10+ to have core archetype mechanics available.

Initiative buffs and debuffs have been rescaled to the standard value of 120 as the stat now scales linearly.

Unbalancing Attack - Small buff to give more power to 13pt mastery ability and make it more viable option compared to other available choices.
Grumble and Mutter/ Bolstering Anger - Temporary removed to make space for more group utility abilities. Will return at a later date.
Blood of Grimnir - New powerful choice to further accentuate IB key role in physical group setups.
We'z Bigger/Vauls Tempering - original Mythic version of this ability offered only one of the immunities. We decided to give it significant buff and provide 6s of both immunities. Now only snares affect players buffed by it.
For the Witch King - New strong 13pt choice for BG that can work within 2h and shield masteries, giving class more spec options by access to cd reduction buff.
Rampage - long overdue toning down of extreme power of 100% strikethrough buff, now its a bit more accessible without need of dropping rage, but at much lower value, not obliterating any and all enemy defense checks.
Heavy Blow - a bit of toning down of extremely potent ST dot, still a very strong choice.
Onslaught/Yer all bleedin now - Small buff to one of the weaker AoE dots in the game.
Flurry/Lotsa choppin - removal of random dmg values, now these skills will be more reliable and easy to calculate.
Git to da choppa/Furious Stompin - bit too strong group utility was removed from primarily AoE spec and replaced with a new ability, further accentuating choppa role as dominant AoE DPS in terms of pure dmg output but at the price of extremely low group utility.

Unbalancing Attack - ok change, that tree is completly garbage anyway.
Blood of Grimnir - ok for small scale wl/slayer groups (yet u need to sacrifice parry/crit buff), useless for warband play.
We'z Bigger/Vauls Tempering - yet another overbuffed abomination ability, on top of that speed buff with the tactic. you guys aware of how op it will be with double black ork groups with sove speed proc ? would be acceptable buff if all other 13 pt abilities are that strong.
For the Witch King - meta will be CD + WW for small scale spec, FoF + WW for warband spec. definetly not biased change
Rampage - will be better than old version of rampage, kinda funny our forum bots celebrating it.
Heavy Blow - pointless nerf, will judge after g&m rework.
Onslaught/Yer all bleedin now - ok change.
Flurry/Lotsa choppin - ok change.
/Furious Stompin - weaker than shatter limbs and far weaker than chop fasta. honestly i'd expect a buff for keep on choppin with this patch (remove exhaust part and buff ap part slightly)

[zumos2]

Not even talking about HB nerf as its just an absolute /facepalm. especially knowing why and how exactly it got nerfed.

I assume you can show is the numbers of why it was such a balanced ability and should have remained as is. And then take into accout the fact that you need to spend a lot less GCDs maintaining your buffs and the damage of the channel was buffed.

Maybe there should be a prove that it was inbalanced before changing it. I'm curious how do you want something proved as balaced? And how should he do so AFTER the patch?

Heavy Blow was always extremely strong. For reference DoTs with a 3s tick interval often have a scaling of 0.9 * Damage Bonus (DB). Translating that to a 1s interval like the DoT of Heavy Blow would be 0.3 * DB. Heavy Blow DoT had a scaling of 1.5 * DB. That is 5 times standard scaling.

Lets take a look at a similar skill of the Slayer: Relentless Strike. With 200 damage bonus Relentless Strike does about 680 damage in total. Heavy Blow did about 1700 damage. That is 2.5x the amount.

I've seen some peole say the damage was nerfed by 50%, which is not true. Only the damage bonus scaling was nerfed from 1.5 to 0.75. The total damage nerf depends on how much strength you have. Rough number would be somewhere between 20% and 35%. So with 200 DB HB still does about 1100 damage, still significantly more than Relentless Strike as reference.

I can only assume why Heavy Blow was made so strong by Mythic. Likeley to compensate for having to cast buffs that deal no damage, like Ancestor's Fury and Oathbound. Now Heavy Blow is still a very strong ability, but with the duration of Ancestor's Fury and Oathbound doubled and a buff to their channel and potential AA damage, bringing Heavy Blow down a bit is necessary to not have IB damage get completely out of line. I don't think anyone wants to see 4 tank 2 healer groups with DoK/WP bringing heal debuff.

[nocturnalguest]

This is just completely false. IB still has plenty of abilities to spend Grudge on if you want to trigger Told Ya So. Additionally you can fully pump AP to your Oath Friend with Watch An' Learn.

Now: crit (or avenging the debt as you cant take both), parry, shield sweep, absorb all once per 10 seconds, punt, and you can kinda waste GCD with either toughness buff (if it even lands with your ~300 str, especially now with stats changes) or SaS. Now you have to choose if you pumping or using something situation requires. But its a false choice as you have to use something that is required so each time you will choose to snare, punt, kd, challenge, guardswap, absorb/use other buffs once per 10-20 seconds or lower (!).
Before: press GnM and passively pump while doing whatever else is required, spending grudges, juggling buffs. You are free to use any appropriate for situation skill which would then further add into pumping.
Result: you pump much lesser now

Actual problem with your sentence is "if you want to trigger TyS" cause you actually dont, its very lame design "wanting to trigger it" vs. it coming passively like any other ap pumps that are there for other classes. GnM did solve the issue allowing you to passively pump while your general skill usage did compensate and fill the downtimes. Now its not and like i said general effiecincy is much lower. Yet i dont have lots of data to support myself so i rant on first day, yeah, i may gather it just for lulz but we have very different views and approaches for balancing so you will not hear me anyways i believe.

Blood of Grimnir is a very strong ability for any small skill physical team, especially considering all Order mdps already have AA haste tactics.

AA is pretty much irrelevant for blob vs blob fights, it goes on like 5-6th spot in combat log graphs. I parse combat.log with a tool Groumpf did back in a day so ill collect how useless this thing actually is in zergy orvr (without elem debuff that would boost BWs dmg+procs) that is played by each casual lazy daddy average joe. Before you would run GnM and then either go for crit+parry buffs or skip crit (as kotbs passively provides 5% groupwide already) and take avenging the debt + shield mastery but you had to go +2 full sov, atm you are more free with gear choices by a cost of pump efficeincy, bad tradeoff i say. AA alone for anything 24+ is lackluster. Could have much better use in some competetive city sieges we no longer have but again, in grand scheme of things big AP pump >>> AA dmg increase so even there that is lackluster to what IB have been bringing before (mostly passively).
Smaller the scale the bigger impact. Any pvp game environment that is not orvr = 2h. And here is a problem with such 13pointer, where to fit it. Yeah no suprise AA increase would boost in e.g. 6v6 big times, but how do you fit this into your spec?! You are mandatory to grab KD (9 pt left tree) so you would have to sacrifice parry (which counters drop da basha/numbling strike) or absorb+crit as you cant drop aoe snare cause kotbs atm is put into tactics starvation due to destroy confidence meta along with popular opinion of dropping kd for kotbs which is not working in classic comp like x2 sl... You can only fit it into somewhat gimp build nor you or any other balance member actually simulated (like vs. all other options one can do and best be just grabbing SM which also has a punt now).

How can someone say IB has no identity ... It is mega buffer of your oath friend: Crit, parry, ini, willpower (now about 14% disrupt), toughness, magic shield, snare break, AP pump, AA damage.

Its losing it, you took away best tank burst, you took away best ap pump, you took away possiblity to juggle buffs (both your dps could have crit buff on channel drop, gl executing this with 10 second cd, cmon...). BO havent been nerfed all at once either. Direction is bad i say, not that it currently has no identity. Also you cant have it all you mention.

I assume you can show is the numbers of why it was such a balanced ability and should have remained as is. And then take into accout the fact that you need to spend a lot less GCDs maintaining your buffs and the damage of the channel was buffed.

Yeah i can show the numbers. GBF scalers shenanigans is such a tiny overall dmg increase that its totally irrelevant, so here you go:
inb4 (pure test on construct)
(2020 year) no grudge no armor debuff no buff with 843 str (bloodlord+warlord) - 2124
atm (pure test on construct)
no grudge no armor debuff no buff with 718 str (5 warlord + 4 vic) - 2195
no grudge no armor debuff 851 str (regen build) - 2325
10% armor penetration is huge tho, tick goes up from 214 (with 851 str) to 251 (on dummy) so once you are 100 grudge that 10% starts to hurt (somewhat). But again, its 13pointer, you sacrifice too much, kinda cant drop parry to counter drop/numbling or earthshatter (which is awesome finisher too) as kotbs is struggling with tactics. Choice is like, either IB goes offensive but then kotbs struggle with taking destroy confidence and has to go usual trispec or IB brings utility so kotbs can get shatter. It would be totally fine, if only that was changed, but nerfhammer swings more and more so what exact shift you guys wanna bring to us is unclear.

In regards to HB you know my points, we've discussed that already. It was absolutely unnecessary to do that, in overall it didnt matter then, it doesnt matter now. Its just Bejkon would not be doing so much dmg in random irrelevant SC and thats about it. A change for a sake of change. Pointless.
ib does more dmg then true dps class? no
ib does more sustain then sm (its his role, sustain pressure)? no
So your defination of overperforming is different then mine. You compare tanks between each other and having this one ability out of line bothers your perfectionism or something. Making it another relentless strike is pretty lame design for a tank class which overall assist dmg was more or less in line with other tanks who are doing dmg (sm/bo/bg). Decreasing IBs burst possibility is washing out its unique role as tank with highest assist burst. Why do that? I dunno. Was it gamebreaking? Ofc not.