Shaman/AM nerf?

[Bozzax]

Can’t wait for another ranked season where am/shman will be trash tier for sure

I doubt we will see shamans or ams as wb backbone healers in the near future. Nor ams or shamans have the durability to provide top heals unless you are stomping and hardly need heals.

[salazarn]

For dps specs?
100% agree of a nerf for probs both but more towards shaman.

The fact they get a free 240 toughness and an extra hot / passive 25% movespeed all day long just makes them next level tanky and they can stack toughness really well.

Super obnoxious to play against

[Ysaran]

For dps specs?
100% agree of a nerf for probs both but more towards shaman.

The fact they get a free 240 toughness and an extra hot / passive 25% movespeed all day long just makes them next level tanky and they can stack toughness really well.

Super obnoxious to play against

All healers have 2 HoTs, except AM. In turn, AM have 4 DoTs, while shaman has only 3. Zeal/AM can stack absorb, RP/DoK/WP can stack armor. Every healer can be tanky.

The speed tactic has already been nerfed, you can't cast on the move anymore and you can't cast from your ass anymore. Not sure what you want more.

[salazarn]

For dps specs?
100% agree of a nerf for probs both but more towards shaman.

The fact they get a free 240 toughness and an extra hot / passive 25% movespeed all day long just makes them next level tanky and they can stack toughness really well.

Super obnoxious to play against

All healers have 2 HoTs, except AM. In turn, AM have 4 DoTs, while shaman has only 3. Zeal/AM can stack absorb, RP/DoK/WP can stack armor. Every healer can be tanky.

The speed tactic has already been nerfed, you can't cast on the move anymore and you can't cast from your ass anymore. Not sure what you want more.

Im talking about shaman and archmages because they do actual damage. Im not complaining about straight healers being tanky.

DPS shaman can do damage on the move with instant dots and have great survivability / kite/ heals at the same time. They are probably the strongest roam class except maybe WE. IDK how anyone can deny that fact.
As for what I want, I would say balance shaman / archmage dps specs.

[Aluviya]

I would like to share my insights as a long-time player of this class and particularly as someone who plays all other healers in competitive content such as group ranked. Here is my feedback on this topic (I know it’s a wall of text, but it’s not avoidable in this case):

Preface:
The dialogue surrounding healer classes often gravitates towards a superficial comparison of their healing output, particularly the ability to heal multiple targets. This approach overlooks the strategic utility these classes offer, leading to a misconception about their viability in certain contexts. Historically, DoK and WP were often seen on par with other healers due to their city healing output statistics while they still are especially in their conventional builds (Book-WP/Chalice Dok) another odd balanced class one could write about. Same applies here. One usually oversees the healing Shaman and AM as their DPS counterparts used to dominate 1 vs 1 battles in NA primetime.

Why AM and Shaman Struggle to Compete with Other Healers:

External Class Pressures:
The ability to Shatter Enchantments in small-scale and competitive play severely impacts both Shaman and AM, hindering their effectiveness heavily. The presence of at least 3-4 classes in a normal group ranked game capable of removing enchantments in a single global cooldown exacerbates this, significantly affecting their ability to maintain crucial HoTs amidst lengthy cast times.

Class Synergy and Meta-game Dynamics:

The interaction between AM+RP and RP+WP pairings (or their Destruction analogs) reveals clear differences. Dual Blessing setups are more resistant to Bless shattering, in contrast to AM or Shaman, which can protect DPS class enchantments. Moreover, the meta's shift towards proc-meta, particularly for Destruction with increased covenant proc rates (check pictures included), puts AM into a heavy disadvantage due to its lack of proc-based contributions. Shaman's ability for morale boosting requires careful coordination, risking the free immunity giving due to its appliance after a CC hits. AM's morale boost, though potent, may not align well with the current Order meta, especially in compositions like Slayer/WH - while there are yet very powerful offensive morales on destru side which can be a deciding factor if available early such as Zealot Talon M1, Choppa M4.

Small Scale PvP and the Evolution of Healing Roles:
In the current Small Scale PvP landscape, healing has become somewhat secondary to damage output and covenant/prayer contributions, particularly for SnB-WP and SnB-DoK classes. Their positioning and resilience to CC make traditional kill strategies less effective, demanding more nuanced tactical plays. Conversely, Shaman and AM lack significant damage output, making hybrid builds risky and less viable.

Class-specific Challenges:

AM and Shaman Mechanics: Both classes suffer from mechanics that either don't align with practical gameplay or are hindered by their design. For instance, AM's Cleanse mechanic negatively impacts its balancing, and Shaman's dual HoTs make efficient use of class mechanics challenging.

Reactive vs. Preventive Healing: The dichotomy between AM as a reactive healer and Shaman as a preventive one highlights their unique approaches but also their limitations, especially in the context of Small Scale PvP. AM's absence of a second HoT, a disadvantage in terms of resilience to Shattering, distinguishes it significantly in small-scale PvP contexts. Shamans, with their dual HoTs, adopt a more preventative healing approach, or when mimicking AM tactics, do so less effectively due to the absence of Funnel Essence. Conversely, AM operates as a reactive healer, primarily leveraging DPS spells to capitalize on its class mechanics for burst scenarios, enhancing HoTs and achieving quicker cast times for healing. This reliance on Funnel Essence elevates AM's performance, positioning it as a premier single-target burst healer in the game.

Animation and Cast Times: Odd cast times tied to class mechanics frequently disrupt gameplay, causing delays in action execution.

AP Drain and CC Inefficiencies: The nerfing of AP drain, coupled with inadequate CC capabilities due to low intelligence stats, further diminishes the strategic value of AM and Shaman in PvP settings.

I could name far more but the conclusion is AM and Shaman possess unique strengths but the current competitive environment and class mechanics often leave them overshadowed by other healers. Addressing these issues requires a nuanced understanding of each class's role and the broader meta-game dynamics.
Some recent 6 vs 6 statistics regarding the proc meta.

[Ysaran]

Im talking about shaman and archmages because they do actual damage. Im not complaining about straight healers being tanky.

DPS shaman can do damage on the move with instant dots and have great survivability / kite/ heals at the same time. They are probably the strongest roam class except maybe WE. IDK how anyone can deny that fact.
As for what I want, I would say balance shaman / archmage dps specs.

Shaman pays a price for being tanky. If you take the second HoT you have to sacrifice either the heal debuff or the silence. Either way you are no real dps. AM have 4 DoTs (one more than shaman) so it can do even more damage on the move. AM can be just as tanky as shaman, only not using toughness but M1 (for which you don''t have to spend 13pt like shaman, since it is core). Shaman/AM damage on the move has been halved since you can't cast I'll Take That/Balance Essence on the move. So I ask you again: what do you want more? How would you balance the class?

Finally, I can say that shaman is not the strongest roam class because that is not a "fact", just YOUR opinion. I play both side and I know just how annoying WH/AM/WL are. I would be more open to take your opinion seriously if I knew you played shaman/AM or even only both Destru and Order.

[Panel]

Lets not forget that AM have their DD abilities and 3 hots in the one tree- so maxing the tree maxes all those abilities with the extra dps that comes from an ability being in a maxed tree. Then there is the 2 for 1 abilities - heal debuff and dot for low price of 1 button press. Dot AND 5% outgoing dmg reduction AND 5% reduced chance to crit all again for the low low price of 1 button push. Shaman cant compete with this - with their DD and 1 dot being in one tree and the other 2 dots being in another tree - so its either 2 strong dots and weaker DD and 1 dot or strong DD and 1 dot plus another 2 weak dots. AM has plenty of points left after maxing middle tree to go up to puddle which also increases their resist buff . Then the absurd M1 - probably justifiable for a healer but just about all are dps in which case its borderline OP.

[salazarn]

Im talking about shaman and archmages because they do actual damage. Im not complaining about straight healers being tanky.

DPS shaman can do damage on the move with instant dots and have great survivability / kite/ heals at the same time. They are probably the strongest roam class except maybe WE. IDK how anyone can deny that fact.
As for what I want, I would say balance shaman / archmage dps specs.

Shaman pays a price for being tanky. If you take the second HoT you have to sacrifice either the heal debuff or the silence. Either way you are no real dps. AM have 4 DoTs (one more than shaman) so it can do even more damage on the move. AM can be just as tanky as shaman, only not using toughness but M1 (for which you don''t have to spend 13pt like shaman, since it is core). Shaman/AM damage on the move has been halved since you can't cast I'll Take That/Balance Essence on the move. So I ask you again: what do you want more? How would you balance the class?

Finally, I can say that shaman is not the strongest roam class because that is not a "fact", just YOUR opinion. I play both side and I know just how annoying WH/AM/WL are. I would be more open to take your opinion seriously if I knew you played shaman/AM or even only both Destru and Order.

Wth is all this. Am has 1 more dot. Sham another Hot...and 240 free toughness....and movespeed buff... Im not even saying AM arent op. Both are for roam everyone knows this. Just that sham is even easier to play. And you act like sham dont get a morale 1. Gorksezstop vs 3600 shield both are good.

And who finds witch hunters scary bro. lol

[Ysaran]

Im talking about shaman and archmages because they do actual damage. Im not complaining about straight healers being tanky.

DPS shaman can do damage on the move with instant dots and have great survivability / kite/ heals at the same time. They are probably the strongest roam class except maybe WE. IDK how anyone can deny that fact.
As for what I want, I would say balance shaman / archmage dps specs.

Shaman pays a price for being tanky. If you take the second HoT you have to sacrifice either the heal debuff or the silence. Either way you are no real dps. AM have 4 DoTs (one more than shaman) so it can do even more damage on the move. AM can be just as tanky as shaman, only not using toughness but M1 (for which you don''t have to spend 13pt like shaman, since it is core). Shaman/AM damage on the move has been halved since you can't cast I'll Take That/Balance Essence on the move. So I ask you again: what do you want more? How would you balance the class?

Finally, I can say that shaman is not the strongest roam class because that is not a "fact", just YOUR opinion. I play both side and I know just how annoying WH/AM/WL are. I would be more open to take your opinion seriously if I knew you played shaman/AM or even only both Destru and Order.

Wth is all this. Am has 1 more dot. Sham another Hot...and 240 free toughness....and movespeed buff... Im not even saying AM arent op. Both are for roam everyone knows this. Just that sham is even easier to play. And you act like sham dont get a morale 1. Gorksezstop vs 3600 shield both are good.

And who finds witch hunters scary bro. lol

I disagree and I already explained why, but that's not the point. The topic is about how would you "fix" shaman/AM. So I ask you again: what change do you think would make shaman/AM balanced?

[Ysaran]

I would like to share my insights as a long-time player of this class and particularly as someone who plays all other healers in competitive content such as group ranked. Here is my feedback on this topic (I know it’s a wall of text, but it’s not avoidable in this case):

Preface:
The dialogue surrounding healer classes often gravitates towards a superficial comparison of their healing output, particularly the ability to heal multiple targets. This approach overlooks the strategic utility these classes offer, leading to a misconception about their viability in certain contexts. Historically, DoK and WP were often seen on par with other healers due to their city healing output statistics while they still are especially in their conventional builds (Book-WP/Chalice Dok) another odd balanced class one could write about. Same applies here. One usually oversees the healing Shaman and AM as their DPS counterparts used to dominate 1 vs 1 battles in NA primetime.

Why AM and Shaman Struggle to Compete with Other Healers:

External Class Pressures:
The ability to Shatter Enchantments in small-scale and competitive play severely impacts both Shaman and AM, hindering their effectiveness heavily. The presence of at least 3-4 classes in a normal group ranked game capable of removing enchantments in a single global cooldown exacerbates this, significantly affecting their ability to maintain crucial HoTs amidst lengthy cast times.

Class Synergy and Meta-game Dynamics:

The interaction between AM+RP and RP+WP pairings (or their Destruction analogs) reveals clear differences. Dual Blessing setups are more resistant to Bless shattering, in contrast to AM or Shaman, which can protect DPS class enchantments. Moreover, the meta's shift towards proc-meta, particularly for Destruction with increased covenant proc rates (check pictures included), puts AM into a heavy disadvantage due to its lack of proc-based contributions. Shaman's ability for morale boosting requires careful coordination, risking the free immunity giving due to its appliance after a CC hits. AM's morale boost, though potent, may not align well with the current Order meta, especially in compositions like Slayer/WH - while there are yet very powerful offensive morales on destru side which can be a deciding factor if available early such as Zealot Talon M1, Choppa M4.

Small Scale PvP and the Evolution of Healing Roles:
In the current Small Scale PvP landscape, healing has become somewhat secondary to damage output and covenant/prayer contributions, particularly for SnB-WP and SnB-DoK classes. Their positioning and resilience to CC make traditional kill strategies less effective, demanding more nuanced tactical plays. Conversely, Shaman and AM lack significant damage output, making hybrid builds risky and less viable.

Class-specific Challenges:

AM and Shaman Mechanics: Both classes suffer from mechanics that either don't align with practical gameplay or are hindered by their design. For instance, AM's Cleanse mechanic negatively impacts its balancing, and Shaman's dual HoTs make efficient use of class mechanics challenging.

Reactive vs. Preventive Healing: The dichotomy between AM as a reactive healer and Shaman as a preventive one highlights their unique approaches but also their limitations, especially in the context of Small Scale PvP. AM's absence of a second HoT, a disadvantage in terms of resilience to Shattering, distinguishes it significantly in small-scale PvP contexts. Shamans, with their dual HoTs, adopt a more preventative healing approach, or when mimicking AM tactics, do so less effectively due to the absence of Funnel Essence. Conversely, AM operates as a reactive healer, primarily leveraging DPS spells to capitalize on its class mechanics for burst scenarios, enhancing HoTs and achieving quicker cast times for healing. This reliance on Funnel Essence elevates AM's performance, positioning it as a premier single-target burst healer in the game.

Animation and Cast Times: Odd cast times tied to class mechanics frequently disrupt gameplay, causing delays in action execution.

AP Drain and CC Inefficiencies: The nerfing of AP drain, coupled with inadequate CC capabilities due to low intelligence stats, further diminishes the strategic value of AM and Shaman in PvP settings.

I could name far more but the conclusion is AM and Shaman possess unique strengths but the current competitive environment and class mechanics often leave them overshadowed by other healers. Addressing these issues requires a nuanced understanding of each class's role and the broader meta-game dynamics.
Some recent 6 vs 6 statistics regarding the proc meta.

Tha's a very interesting analysis. It is clear that the mechanic and the distribution of skills tied to the mechanic don't match. Maybe a solution would be to tie all the skills to the mechanic.