Magus Solo Roaming [Gank Unit]

[Zxul]

What you forgot to mention is that armor is a lot more debuffable, while resists are a lot more buffable.

A single 1600 wl/mara debuff reduces armor mitigation by 36%, while the best magus 370 debuff debuffs resists by at most 22%. And armor then still can be penetrated more by ws, while there is no similar skill for resists. A 3 k armor- what a fully decked with armor talis light armor class will have- will only provide a 20% actual dmg mitigation vs a wl with just a 500 ws.

WL has a 1360 ish armor debuff in roaming spec and consider the poor WS value of this carrer, mara tactic works for singletarget mutations whilst WL only affects Aoe skills. Hence why a WL is effective at jumping low armor glass cannons( i.e ''pug stomper) but inefficient against armored targets with some level of sustain(i.e any competent, geared roamer which is not a glass cannon).

So apparently you are actually serious. Lets look at the actual numbers then. Medium armor full sov with armor pot, 3500 armor. Lets take the armor debuff in your spec 1360 , 3500- 1360= 2140. Taking just 500 ws on wl side, and no benefit from tactic, it means 31% actual mitigation from armor. And that is medium armor, light armor even full sov will mitigate much less. So mind explaining how did you got to "inefficient against armored targets", unless you are only counting attacking sov tanks?

From other hand, there are several classes in the game- kotb/chosen, am/sham, rp/zealot- which can buff resists by 15%-22%, while there are no similar buffs for armor.

This is a dishonest simplification, magic do not have to invest in any stat at all to penetrate for a good value vs all targets, they always have good penetration ( at least 60% which is the equivalent of 800 WS for free) regardless of resistance buffs or not, or armor class, furthermore their powerful magic debuffs are readibly available which trivializes resistance even more and neutralizes the strongest of resistance buffs.

No, it is you are who is being dishonest here, intentionally ignoring that any physical dmg dealer (actually specced for dealing physical dmg) will have both ws, and direct armor debuff. While there is nothing equivalent to penetration gained from ws, for non physical dmg.

As for specifically what you said about "your damage effectiveness is at least 80 effective with zero investment into a secondary stat vs all classes", lets calculate. Kotb, or any member of his party, with 370 resists aura. Lets take base 550 resists, and from other hand 370 magus debuff, leaving 550 actual resists, or 32% actual mitigation- before the toughness mitigation- with zero investment from the defender side. Which magus has no additional way of debuffing. Mind explaining how did you got that "80 effective with zero investment" for magus?

With ''superb resistances'', at a 30-32% reduction the penetration is still insane, no investments at all with a 70% ish penetration.

Physical damage has no equivalent to this and must invest 900WS or equvialent in other stats/tactics to reach 70%, e.g disregarding individual class balance, generally magic is A LOT more powerful than physical to the point its such a glaring imbalance in the game's itemization, and never aknowledged afaik.

And again intentionally ignoring physical dmg having both direct armor debuffs and ws, and comparing just the ws to nonphysical resist debuffs, got you. What is next, "afk wl can't do dmg, therefore casters are overpowered"?

Furthermore, this point is aimed at roaming, hence most target will not even have a knight/chosen aura resistance buff unless they are playing these specific classes themselves(i.e regen tanks) or use a resistance liniment. 80% penetration or more from magic is very realistic, whereas armor penetration you'll need the equivalent of 700 WS to reach in comparison a measly 50% armor penetration, forget about 70-80 lol unless we're talking the old pre-nerfed WH/WE tactics.

And again intentionally ignoring facts. Like I posted above, there are quite a few classes in the game which can buff resists, kotb/chosen, am/sham, rp/zealot, and actually bo as well with Da Greenest.

Magic does not even have the equivalent of armor penetration reduction as a secondary defensive stat( unlike armor, to further trivialize WS) and in case of spellcasters, disrupt is almost none existant defence from itemization and renown since they can easily reach 20% striketrhough, compare that to say parry stacking. ( i've heard of AM's with 40% disrupt strikethrough where most targets would struggle to get 30% dirsput without a special skill or mechanic)

"Magic does not even have the equivalent of armor penetration reduction as a secondary defensive stat( unlike armor, to further trivialize WS)"- what are you even trying to say, that non physical users don't have anything to debuff resists with beyond direct debuffs? Yep, agree, while physical dmg users also get ws armor pen on top. Glad that you agree.

And about disrupt, every healer with say 600 will will have 18% disr just from that, meaning 36% dis with renown, without counting anything on equipment. Also, lets remind HoL- free 45% disrupt to everyone, now remind me which ability gives everyone a free 45% parry. Also, lets remind tank disrupt tactics.

And since you are talking about striketrhough, it is interesting that every wl has exactly the same free 20% striketrhough (10% from str + 10% from 2h). And unlike casters, most of which will have trouble reaching 20% even with equip, wl gets that 20% before any striketrhough on equip.

P.S. I just dueled BO on my SM, at 5k armor and 10% armor penetration reduction( 400ish regen in this setup) this poor fellow could not deal any damage at all( Sov geared BO) whilst the magic based SM cut through him like a hot knife through butter.

And did that bo actually bothered using Da Greenest, up to 378= 22.5% extra spirit mitigation? Or say using resist lini, or a spirit resist pot? Not to mention, you are taking what is probably the currently worst destro physical dmg dealer (and for that matter also a worst tank in game), vs a sov tank, and using that as an example.

[ggunit]

Magus is very harsh matchup for anyone!
much damage, much HP, much control
also Engi has ranged Auto-atack and more damage from pet i think
all you need is a detount/interupt magus casts

This ultimately highlights the imbalance between physical vs magical in this game, physical need to invest into weapon skill/ a secondary stats) for lesser returns whereas magical does not, a single debuff ( IIRC magus pet does the elemental debuff) and your damage effectiveness is at least 80 effective with zero investment into a secondary stat vs all classes, hence the extreme effectiviness of the magus compared to the engineer in the small man arena ( generally).

Of course engineer can do the same but only with the aoe and dot skills, magus does it with the whole arsenal including the hard hitting singletarget spells which is why it can delete everything fast including regen tanks. Engineer auto attacks is a joke in comparison and would do very little vs a regen Chosen etc.

Go figure, the most effective destruction classes for solo roaming are all magical based, Shaman, Magus, Chosen. On Order the Archmage , the exception is if the class has a lot of good stuff suited for roaming as IB ( before removal of GnM) or previously due to high scaling of armor penetration which no longer exists ( WH/WE 50% tactic).

I agree with what you're saying, a well played Magus such as yours is one of the harder opponents, only previously beaten by the Regen Witch elf and still more manageable than a well played hybrid shaman.

hmmm im not sure its right
youre simplifying the game mechanics too much
i love physical classes more when magic (you can check it on my youtube channel, 11 vids on physical damagers and 2 vids on mages and 1 on SM)
physical classes have more sustain damage and always better for hittin non-tanks targets
the game was not made by fools and you have to pay something for magical damage

[Stinksuit]

You forgot dps zealot from that list of effective destro solo classes ;)

I think I once met a Zealot that actually did some damage, not directly lethal but felt on a non-regen dps character :) . I do fear Zealot a lot in fact but not as damage( their damn healing :cry: ). Not even magic can overcome low damage abilities?( I only know what I encountered, apologize if i'm wrong ).

Myeah after woi nerf burst dropped down from 7k+ to like 4k.. sad times :(

[Farrul]

So apparently you are actually serious. Lets look at the actual numbers then. Medium armor full sov with armor pot, 3500 armor. Lets take the armor debuff in your spec 1360 , 3500- 1360= 2140. Taking just 500 ws on wl side, and no benefit from tactic, it means 31% actual mitigation from armor. And that is medium armor, light armor even full sov will mitigate much less. So mind explaining how did you got to "inefficient against armored targets", unless you are only counting attacking sov tanks?

What medium armor do you base your numbers on, a parry stacking choppa with a basic vanilla armor pot? Otherwise both WL and Mara can if they wish have tank levels of armor ( 4,5- 5k+ add fleshrenders etc). But this whole argument of yours is moving the goalpost.

''500'' proves to me you have no experience with the class,Wl has no natural WS augmentation ( unlike a mara, choppa, slayer etc). It has the armor debuff, then the proc from vanq/triumph. Everything else has to be weighted against other stats such as Str, Crit, and defenses to not melt.

A magic user does not need to sacrifice anything like that and it still penetrates defences in general better, sounds fair?

Efficiency has to be calculated in this context of comparing it to something else and not in a vacuum, in this case the penetration potential of Magic based classes which consistently beats the crap out of physical, because their is an obvious discrepancy in their fundamental balancing of the mitigation ( regardless of individual class, just the system per se).

The only thing physical had comparable to Magic efficiency were the old WH/WE tactics of 50%, there is nothing else including WS( lets disregard the stat investment imbalance for a sec) armor debuff that can be consistently be as efficient, not even close.

No, it is you are who is being dishonest here, intentionally ignoring that any physical dmg dealer (actually specced for dealing physical dmg) will have both ws, and direct armor debuff. While there is nothing equivalent to penetration gained from ws, for non physical dmg.

I've just proven the taxing investment of WS and you claim i ignore it? I've already proven the superior penetration returns of magic vs physical yet you keep repeating the already debunked argument of yours?

Yes, 70-80% ''free'' penetration can clearly be compared to investing massive armount of WS, tactics and other stats. Why do i even bother.

And again intentionally ignoring physical dmg having both direct armor debuffs and ws, and comparing just the ws to nonphysical resist debuffs, got you. What is next, "afk wl can't do dmg, therefore casters are overpowered"?

And again you claim something which is not true, why don't you refute my arguments with sensible logic?

And again intentionally ignoring facts. Like I posted above, there are quite a few classes in the game which can buff resists, kotb/chosen, am/sham, rp/zealot, and actually bo as well with Da Greenest.

I've touched each and everywhere point you made, what in your perception have i ignored?

Here we go again, with the strongeat resistance buff the debuff will still neutralize it, back to 500 res on a bis which is 30% reduction, or 70% magic penetration. There is no equivalent for physical damage when it comes to efficiency or consistent damage on different kind of targets.

If you think there is, go ahead and prove it.

Take the physical class of your choice , pair it vs :

a) low armor

b) medium armor

c) Heavy armor

Now do the same with a magic class that has a 370sih resistance debuff .
a) -
b)-
c)-

Take into consideration the stats, everything invested.

Im all ears.

And about disrupt, every healer with say 600 will will have 18% disr just from that, meaning 36% dis with renown, without counting anything on equipment. Also, lets remind HoL- free 45% disrupt to everyone, now remind me which ability gives everyone a free 45% parry. Also, lets remind tank disrupt tactics.

And since you are talking about striketrhough, it is interesting that every wl has exactly the same free 20% striketrhough (10% from str + 10% from 2h). And unlike casters, most of which will have trouble reaching 20% even with equip, wl gets that 20% before any striketrhough on equip.

So you continue to ignore the points made, listen stay on topic which is roaming, don't include party play or buffs which changes the dynamic completely. HTL is almost 100% irrelevant unless you fight a SnB IB as destro, in which case the buff is going to be 45% and you should not attack that target. Comon sense.

The healers that roam are dps or hybrids, otherwise they are in party healing others and do not need offensive stats themselves. Do they still stack 600 wilpower in a dps/hybrid spec? Well hybrids (Shaman in particular) are overpowered and go figure... magic based( hence why they could stack will or toughness/ whatever in the first place, there is no need for a secondary dps stat investment, i.e WS)

Still 16% disrupt makes little difference, now parry stacking is very real with values of 60-75%.

And did that bo actually bothered using Da Greenest, up to 378= 22.5% extra spirit mitigation? Or say using resist lini, or a spirit resist pot? Not to mention, you are taking what is probably the currently worst destro physical dmg dealer (and for that matter also a worst tank in game), vs a sov tank, and using that as an example.

Im using SM VS BO an example because they are mirror classes, just like Magus and engineer, clearly the magic based one is superior in this regard ( becuase of this fact alone, not other class tools, BO is even the more tankier one with as mentioned Da greenst, 160 wounds tactic and more parry etc).

But this is interesting , even without You Wot BO still does more damage than a Chosen, or BG for that matter( Multipliers , crit, scaling of ability) on paper, the problem is that a Chosen ( orSM) due their scource of magic is a lot more efficient, BO being in rough spot( which i agree to) has little to do with this example of comparing magic vs physical. The old BO with YouWot would still lose to an SM unless they stacked so much regen/toughness to the point the duel becomes eternal and pointless.

This was just an extreme example of how efficient magic itemization and penetration is compared to physical.

[rady]

So you continue to ignore the points made, listen stay on topic which is roaming,...

Actually the topic is about showcasing ggunit's fights... and not balance or whatever.

I've noticed increased numbers of lowbie magi since that video

[Farrul]

hmmm im not sure its right
youre simplifying the game mechanics too much
i love physical classes more when magic (you can check it on my youtube channel, 11 vids on physical damagers and 2 vids on mages and 1 on SM)
physical classes have more sustain damage and always better for hittin non-tanks targets
the game was not made by fools and you have to pay something for magical damage

This point is in the context of roaming, which implies singletarget damage and must consider the defences available for the character. For general play the dynamic is complex between class interaction and faction for that matter. It is harder to tell based on class. Melee aoe classes do perform better than ranged in the largest scale and these are typical physical based. Ranged classes generally have a massive advantage in less organized gameplay.

But in the small scale the imbalance of the mitigation available is clearly in large favor of magic based carrers ( who can utilize it , sorry to the Mr Zealot i hear you ). The difference is significant enough to let magic users create the more powerful toons unless there is a special mechanic in place that ''fixes'' the shortcomings of physical, such as the mentioned old WH 50% tactic.

The system per se is something i am sure a lot of modern games out there would have questioned and called out as obvious imbalance from day one, how can one scource of damage require two different stats to build and another only one, furthermore gets superpowerful debuffs that targets the already compromised mitigation available(resistance).

Most good roamers i know have always pointed this out, but not everyone is honest, for obvious reasons . I remember MDPV talking about this a lot yet at the time i ignored it a bit in favor of class balance. It is glaring obvious though.

So you continue to ignore the points made, listen stay on topic which is roaming,...

Actually the topic is about showcasing ggunit's fights... and not balance or whatever.

I've noticed increased numbers of lowbie magi since that video

Yes this is correct, although he himself opened up the argument.

[Pahakukka]

So you continue to ignore the points made, listen stay on topic which is roaming,...

Actually the topic is about showcasing ggunit's fights... and not balance or whatever.

I've noticed increased numbers of lowbie magi since that video

Were they wearing yellow?

[Zxul]

What medium armor do you base your numbers on, a parry stacking choppa with a basic vanilla armor pot? Otherwise both WL and Mara can if they wish have tank levels of armor ( 4,5- 5k+ add fleshrenders etc). But this whole argument of yours is moving the goalpost.

''500'' proves to me you have no experience with the class,Wl has no natural WS augmentation ( unlike a mara, choppa, slayer etc). It has the armor debuff, then the proc from vanq/triumph. Everything else has to be weighted against other stats such as Str, Crit, and defenses to not melt.

So you are taking wl/mara which for some reason went all out with armor set bonuses/talis at expense of dmg as a baseline, same as that BO without DA Greenest, got you. In this case lets take any class with lets say just Winds set + resists lini, meaning any class can get 40% mitigation vs nonphysical even after resist debuffs, without any need of outside buffs, and with equipment which is easily gotten the moment it hits 40. So any nonphysical dmg class can never get more than 60% penetration, while physical dmg classes can combining direct armor debuffs + ws get up to 80%+, glad to know our argument is over, and we clearly agree that physical classes got a significantly better penetration. Can even argue, based on what you said, that nonphysical dmg is underpowered and needs buff.

Also, it specifically shows that with your repeated "70-80% ''free'' penetration" you are being intentionally dishonest. If it wasn't clear till now.

Also, in case it wasn't clear, wl with 500 ws is wl with baseline ws+ some investment into ws. Far away from 800+ ws which for example slayer can get.

A magic user does not need to sacrifice anything like that and it still penetrates defences in general better, sounds fair?

Efficiency has to be calculated in this context of comparing it to something else and not in a vacuum, in this case the penetration potential of Magic based classes which consistently beats the crap out of physical, because their is an obvious discrepancy in their fundamental balancing of the mitigation ( regardless of individual class, just the system per se).

The only thing physical had comparable to Magic efficiency were the old WH/WE tactics of 50%, there is nothing else including WS( lets disregard the stat investment imbalance for a sec) armor debuff that can be consistently be as efficient, not even close.

Glad that we agreed that its just you making things up.

Yes, 70-80% ''free'' penetration can clearly be compared to investing massive armount of WS, tactics and other stats. Why do i even bother.
And again you claim something which is not true, why don't you refute my arguments with sensible logic?
I've touched each and everywhere point you made, what in your perception have i ignored?

Glad that we agreed that "70-80% ''free'' penetration" is just you making things up.

Here we go again, with the strongeat resistance buff the debuff will still neutralize it, back to 500 res on a bis which is 30% reduction, or 70% magic penetration. There is no equivalent for physical damage when it comes to efficiency or consistent damage on different kind of targets.
If you think there is, go ahead and prove it.
Take the physical class of your choice , pair it vs :
a) low armor
b) medium armor
c) Heavy armor
Now do the same with a magic class that has a 370sih resistance debuff .
a) -
b)-
c)-
Take into consideration the stats, everything invested.
Im all ears.

Glad that I could easily show it above for any class in merc who just hit 40, who is willing to invest a bit of gold + a few minutes doing pve quests.

Now realistically, that does sums it up pretty much- Winds set and resist lini are something which is very easy for any toon to get a hold of the moment it hits 40, while armor talis and high lvl sets with armor bonuses take much more effort. And yet pretty much non uses Winds set and resist lini, while armor talis go on ah for quite a lot of gold, and people are willing to put in all that time to get the high lvl sets. Not to mention everyone using armor pots. Which should tell you all which you need to know which type of dmg is considered more dangerous, non physical or physical.

[reynor007]

great video my friend, nice to see you in the game again)

[reynor007]

What medium armor do you base your numbers on, a parry stacking choppa with a basic vanilla armor pot? Otherwise both WL and Mara can if they wish have tank levels of armor ( 4,5- 5k+ add fleshrenders etc). But this whole argument of yours is moving the goalpost.

''500'' proves to me you have no experience with the class,Wl has no natural WS augmentation ( unlike a mara, choppa, slayer etc). It has the armor debuff, then the proc from vanq/triumph. Everything else has to be weighted against other stats such as Str, Crit, and defenses to not melt.

So you are taking wl/mara which for some reason went all out with armor set bonuses/talis at expense of dmg as a baseline, same as that BO without DA Greenest, got you. In this case lets take any class with lets say just Winds set + resists lini, meaning any class can get 40% mitigation vs nonphysical even after resist debuffs, without any need of outside buffs, and with equipment which is easily gotten the moment it hits 40. So any nonphysical dmg class can never get more than 60% penetration, while physical dmg classes can combining direct armor debuffs + ws get up to 80%+, glad to know our argument is over, and we clearly agree that physical classes got a significantly better penetration. Can even argue, based on what you said, that nonphysical dmg is underpowered and needs buff.

Also, it specifically shows that with your repeated "70-80% ''free'' penetration" you are being intentionally dishonest. If it wasn't clear till now.

Also, in case it wasn't clear, wl with 500 ws is wl with baseline ws+ some investment into ws. Far away from 800+ ws which for example slayer can get.

A magic user does not need to sacrifice anything like that and it still penetrates defences in general better, sounds fair?

Efficiency has to be calculated in this context of comparing it to something else and not in a vacuum, in this case the penetration potential of Magic based classes which consistently beats the crap out of physical, because their is an obvious discrepancy in their fundamental balancing of the mitigation ( regardless of individual class, just the system per se).

The only thing physical had comparable to Magic efficiency were the old WH/WE tactics of 50%, there is nothing else including WS( lets disregard the stat investment imbalance for a sec) armor debuff that can be consistently be as efficient, not even close.

Glad that we agreed that its just you making things up.

Yes, 70-80% ''free'' penetration can clearly be compared to investing massive armount of WS, tactics and other stats. Why do i even bother.
And again you claim something which is not true, why don't you refute my arguments with sensible logic?
I've touched each and everywhere point you made, what in your perception have i ignored?

Glad that we agreed that "70-80% ''free'' penetration" is just you making things up.

Here we go again, with the strongeat resistance buff the debuff will still neutralize it, back to 500 res on a bis which is 30% reduction, or 70% magic penetration. There is no equivalent for physical damage when it comes to efficiency or consistent damage on different kind of targets.
If you think there is, go ahead and prove it.
Take the physical class of your choice , pair it vs :
a) low armor
b) medium armor
c) Heavy armor
Now do the same with a magic class that has a 370sih resistance debuff .
a) -
b)-
c)-
Take into consideration the stats, everything invested.
Im all ears.

Glad that I could easily show it above for any class in merc who just hit 40, who is willing to invest a bit of gold + a few minutes doing pve quests.

Now realistically, that does sums it up pretty much- Winds set and resist lini are something which is very easy for any toon to get a hold of the moment it hits 40, while armor talis and high lvl sets with armor bonuses take much more effort. And yet pretty much non uses Winds set and resist lini, while armor talis go on ah for quite a lot of gold, and people are willing to put in all that time to get the high lvl sets. Not to mention everyone using armor pots. Which should tell you all which you need to know which type of dmg is considered more dangerous, non physical or physical.

I like it when people discuss balance based on their feelings, well, let me give the facts not long ago I played on WL, I had 630ws, but my damage reduction on Def WE was more than 55% after armor debuff (WE use armor talisman) you will also see my fights against tanks and damage reduction by 90%. after that you put any of my videos into a magic class and you will never see more than 40% damage reduction, and more often it will be around 18-22%. even playing on SW after the patch and having 1030 WS, I still got over 60% damage reduction against tanks, this is better than before, but not comparable to magic damage
you're really ignoring the fact that you have to have over 800WS if you want to fight any enemy you encounter, not just those using light armor
but even 800ws is ridiculous against a regen tank that has at least 12% protection against armor penetration, this means that from your 800, there will be 500 left, what is 35% armor penetration against 110%+ protection?