[SL] why so unpopular?

[Farrul]

Listen, you can solo roam and make it a point to rely on the protection of other players. Easily. Be that a warband, a duo, a 6 man, or whatever.

As already mentioned, this point of yours is referred to as ''zergsurfing'' or being grouped up, which indeed SW's is capable in. Solo roaming however is a different thing entirely which has a different meta( def/regen/sustain).

In solo roaming a SW will not perform anywhere near the top and will generally be extremely vulnerable to those classes with superior presence, which is why in the actual game one very rarely observes a SW doing this kind of activity for long or sticking to it since its tied to a lot of frustration due to class disadvantages( relatively speaking) in this context.

[Farrul]

Fair enough - i did decide to just look down the rest of the list for comparison though. The SW's werelooking at about a ratio of c.15:1 kill to solo kill
Mieles Maura 22xx SOLO: 20. Ratio c.100:1
Krix WH (designed for solo, right?) 19xx SOLO 258, ratio c.9:1
Jackdarippe Choppa 19xx SOLO 142 ratio c.15:1
Deviathl WL 17xx SOLO 61 ratio c.30:1
Korgha Mara,17xx SOLO 95, ratio c. 18:1

The arguments you outlined above still all apply- but normalising across kills as seen in this rough look (my solo kills were lifetime, but i figured thats what you looked at too)- the SW is *still* performing consistantly better than/atLEAST average in SOLO. The WH was better by 50% of so...but... ist hat a surprise? I'd be happy to concede that WH is a better solo roaming than the SW.

So the discussion started about actual SOLO SW's, Farrul made the argument that most of them are simply zergsurfing because thats what actually works well with a SW.

You list a lot of zergsurfing SWs.... i mention that ... and as answer you give me a list of other dps without any context ...
The majority of your List are Grp Player or even grp exclusive Players. dont undderstand what that has anything to do with actual SOLO SWs (btw still missing the example of a 1vs1 solo SW)

The context of these players are that they are the next down the line in monthly kills - the SWs were all the top 4 (all shadow warriors). You mentioned their solo kills being low to suggest theyre surfing characters. Going down the list in other high kill classes showed they had overall *less* solo footprint than the SW. The point would be; SW's are more capable solo killers (even if theyre not trying to/that's not their playstyle, like you said). They may not be seeking those circumstances, but theyre very potent at executing them (except when compared to the WH - who is likely seeking those situations out).

It's just food for thought. I accepted you were using low solo kills to point out those players were usualy in a group. But out of curiosity, those solo kills are actually still above average per group kill. Is this evidence theyre the best solo class? No. (but it is alarming that theyre not much worse than the WH). But it *is* to suggest theyre atleast more effective than the other kill-volume-centric classes as going it alone.

This can't be known from statistics of a kill board, it does not show how the kill actually happened, just that it did.

So this would be a 100% false information if one interprets it as SW being good at solo roaming, it would be correct in the context of a zergsurfer, unlike the SW however the WH is a much better suited class for the task of roaming solo ( nerfed as it is), for obvious reasons known to anyone who actually roams solo.

[Sulorie]

Then there is the added issue of a low pop server, especially during NA hours grouping up is not always possible and this highly favors certain classes over others, resulting in more imbalances. Hence why imho the devs should adapt the balance to what the server is, rather than pretend it is something else long gone.

Tbh, the numbers of players, who want to solo roam and have the gear and knowledge to do so are insignificantly low. So low, that class differences in this regard exist but don't matter at all. Kotbs offers more to the group, while Chosen is more "selfish" in this regard. People being solo in rvr, because they can't find a group during low pop times, isn't solo roaming. Just having a Chosen doesn't make you a solo roamer either, you are just a tank alone in rvr and prey for anyone coming along unless you build your char for this environment.

[Turd]

So the discussion started about actual SOLO SW's, Farrul made the argument that most of them are simply zergsurfing because thats what actually works well with a SW.

You list a lot of zergsurfing SWs.... i mention that ... and as answer you give me a list of other dps without any context ...
The majority of your List are Grp Player or even grp exclusive Players. dont undderstand what that has anything to do with actual SOLO SWs (btw still missing the example of a 1vs1 solo SW)

The context of these players are that they are the next down the line in monthly kills - the SWs were all the top 4 (all shadow warriors). You mentioned their solo kills being low to suggest theyre surfing characters. Going down the list in other high kill classes showed they had overall *less* solo footprint than the SW. The point would be; SW's are more capable solo killers (even if theyre not trying to/that's not their playstyle, like you said). They may not be seeking those circumstances, but theyre very potent at executing them (except when compared to the WH - who is likely seeking those situations out).

It's just food for thought. I accepted you were using low solo kills to point out those players were usualy in a group. But out of curiosity, those solo kills are actually still above average per group kill. Is this evidence theyre the best solo class? No. (but it is alarming that theyre not much worse than the WH). But it *is* to suggest theyre atleast more effective than the other kill-volume-centric classes as going it alone.

This can't be known from statistics of a kill board, it does not show how the kill actually happened, just that it did.

So this would be a 100% false information if one interprets it as SW being good at solo roaming, it would be correct in the context of a zergsurfer, unlike the SW however the WH is a much better suited class for the task of roaming solo ( nerfed as it is), for obvious reasons known to anyone who actually roams solo.

Was simply an apples to apples comparison of whatever their system was logging as a 'solo kill' across different users. If it was tainted, it was tainted equally.

[Mooselager]

I only want to throw in that there are no complaints, specifically from order or destro side, only individuals that claim to speak on behalf of a whole fraction.

In Germany, we have a word called "Fremdscham", which is a combination of the words foreign and embarrassment. It's used when you see someone embarrassing himself and therefore feel ashamed yourself. That's what I get when I see some claims that people give in my name because I mainly play one faction.

The only two things this comment does is contradict itself & dismiss legitimate issues which contributes to this games waning population. Literal definition of irony.

[what63]

Listen, you can solo roam and make it a point to rely on the protection of other players. Easily. Be that a warband, a duo, a 6 man, or whatever.

As already mentioned, this point of yours is referred to as ''zergsurfing'' or being grouped up, which indeed SW's is capable in. Solo roaming however is a different thing entirely which has a different meta( def/regen/sustain).

In solo roaming a SW will not perform anywhere near the top and will generally be extremely vulnerable to those classes with superior presence, which is why in the actual game one very rarely observes a SW doing this kind of activity for long or sticking to it since its tied to a lot of frustration due to class disadvantages( relatively speaking) in this context.

Zersurfing is used way too broadly here. Being grouped up seems to encompass even not being in a group?

By this logic, any time you run around solo on a 2h regen BO and cannot get pure 1v1s, but instead end up with only engagements that include even a single other friendly person, you are by definition not solo roaming regardless of how you ended up in this fight. And more importantly, if you know you can participate in a smaller engagements and come out with loot, would you have to forego this fight to be worthy (yeah, we are apparently making this out to be some kind of protected designation) of calling yourself a solo roamer?

If solo roaming means running around looking strictly for duels, I would agree, but it seems kinda ludicrous to make it to where tagging in on a 1v2 you happen on for example is suddenly surfing a zerg. It simply just doesn't work this way. Solo roaming encompasses much more than roaming for duels. It encompasses roaming for any fight, which SW is more than capable of doing, it just has its own ups and downs like anything else. The issue is that the ups makes it an above average frustration to deal with for other people ending up in the same engagements for the same reasons.

Is general roaming even with a group not roaming if you ever have a single add to your fights? Is this then group zergsurfing? Are you a warband if your group has some low level engi tagging your kills? Are you just leeching if you engage in already ongoing fight, while coming out with almost all the actual kills and loot even as a group?

My point is, that all ranged classes have the capability of, by strict definition, roaming a map solo, without taking any duels they know they will loose, while still farming very efficiently by participating in arbitrary engagements that are neither zergs nor involve any actual friendly group. Yes, WE/WH do this better in terms of having the ability to never die, not least because Torquemadra tuned stealth beyond any realm of sanity. And you will die to these on occassion. Soloing is pain and suffering accross the board if you don't have stealth. All solo roamers will eventually succumb to the 3-4 WH pops that have become the norm or sudden appearance of other adds, be they other people roaming the lake solo or full blown warbands popping up in unexpected places.

Anyways, SW does have good matchups even for duelling. Is it the best at it? Probably not. Is it the safest and most durable class to run around and look for fights on? Probably not. Can you, again by strict definition, roam a lake solo, take the fights that you feel comfortable with ranging from 1v1 aaaaaaall the way through the arbitrary configurations up until it actually makes sense to call it zergsurfing and come out of it with above average loot? Most certainly.

Some classes need to pick 1v1 fights when running solo and avoid larger engagements, as they will get whittled down exponentially faster as the amount of players grow. Others have the ability to pick 1v1 fights at mostly their own discretion, while also contributing significantly to fights with more than two people involved. SW falls solidly into the latter category.

[Everdin]

Anybodys remembers the good old days this Thread was about slayers?

Anyways: what you will see for all the sw mentioned here ist, you will see them a lot and everywhere.

The best to say about sw is, it works! Everywhere, everytime.

Few SC popping and no healer around? Go sw, you can stay out of fight and still contribute!

Eu primetime zerg everywhere? Go sw, zergsurfing and killing people that turned around already!

PvDoor in the enemy side? Go sw, in every raid there are some guys without gear you can snipe!

PvDoor in your side? Go sw, If there is something in the wall, i'll try and kill it!

Engineer also ist an option, but way more clunky in some of the Situations

Sw needs nearly to Zero preparation to start a fight, he can roam around a fight without beeing in the brawl and leave before it's to late.

You will find same Picture with sh If destro ist more active (zergsurfing ist always more wörthwhile if the zerg you are in is winning)

[jafh123]

Listen, you can solo roam and make it a point to rely on the protection of other players. Easily. Be that a warband, a duo, a 6 man, or whatever.

As already mentioned, this point of yours is referred to as ''zergsurfing'' or being grouped up, which indeed SW's is capable in. Solo roaming however is a different thing entirely which has a different meta( def/regen/sustain).

In solo roaming a SW will not perform anywhere near the top and will generally be extremely vulnerable to those classes with superior presence, which is why in the actual game one very rarely observes a SW doing this kind of activity for long or sticking to it since its tied to a lot of frustration due to class disadvantages( relatively speaking) in this context.

Zersurfing is used way too broadly here. Being grouped up seems to encompass even not being in a group?

By this logic, any time you run around solo on a 2h regen BO and cannot get pure 1v1s, but instead end up with only engagements that include even a single other friendly person, you are by definition not solo roaming regardless of how you ended up in this fight. And more importantly, if you know you can participate in a smaller engagements and come out with loot, would you have to forego this fight to be worthy (yeah, we are apparently making this out to be some kind of protected designation) of calling yourself a solo roamer?

If solo roaming means running around looking strictly for duels, I would agree, but it seems kinda ludicrous to make it to where tagging in on a 1v2 you happen on for example is suddenly surfing a zerg. It simply just doesn't work this way. Solo roaming encompasses much more than roaming for duels. It encompasses roaming for any fight, which SW is more than capable of doing, it just has its own ups and downs like anything else. The issue is that the ups makes it an above average frustration to deal with for other people ending up in the same engagements for the same reasons.

Is general roaming even with a group not roaming if you ever have a single add to your fights? Is this then group zergsurfing? Are you a warband if your group has some low level engi tagging your kills? Are you just leeching if you engage in already ongoing fight, while coming out with almost all the actual kills and loot even as a group?

My point is, that all ranged classes have the capability of, by strict definition, roaming a map solo, without taking any duels they know they will loose, while still farming very efficiently by participating in arbitrary engagements that are neither zergs nor involve any actual friendly group. Yes, WE/WH do this better in terms of having the ability to never die, not least because Torquemadra tuned stealth beyond any realm of sanity. And you will die to these on occassion. Soloing is pain and suffering accross the board if you don't have stealth. All solo roamers will eventually succumb to the 3-4 WH pops that have become the norm or sudden appearance of other adds, be they other people roaming the lake solo or full blown warbands popping up in unexpected places.

Anyways, SW does have good matchups even for duelling. Is it the best at it? Probably not. Is it the safest and most durable class to run around and look for fights on? Probably not. Can you, again by strict definition, roam a lake solo, take the fights that you feel comfortable with ranging from 1v1 aaaaaaall the way through the arbitrary configurations up until it actually makes sense to call it zergsurfing and come out of it with above average loot? Most certainly.

Some classes need to pick 1v1 fights when running solo and avoid larger engagements, as they will get whittled down exponentially faster as the amount of players grow. Others have the ability to pick 1v1 fights at mostly their own discretion, while also contributing significantly to fights with more than two people involved. SW falls solidly into the latter category.

Both "solo roaming" and "zerg surfing" are terms made up by players and each player might have their own definition.

I consider solo roaming to be only 1vX, so if someone else intervenes in the kill, it's no longer a solo kill, even if you are not formally grouped with the other player, and the killboard will register it as a "normal" kill.

So you can have a player that never formally groups up because he wants to "solo roam", but he might only have 100 solo kills (I know solo kills are not 100% accurate) out of 10000 total kills. Would you consider this player a "solo roamer"? (I wouldn't).

"Solo" is a spanish word (I happen to be spanish) and in this context you would translate it as "alone"; so, even if you're not formally grouped up, every time there's another player from your realm involved in the fight you're not fighting alone, thus, you're not "solo roaming", even if you think you are.

[Everdin]

Solos kills didn't count if you are solo, solo kills count if no other do damage, you can be in a warband and still have solo kills as long as no other player is involved (tbh not sure about getting healed)

If 2000 people are around you, and in this safe envoirement you kill somebody, it's a solo kill

So in fact, what is count as solo kill in killboard IS a solo kill, but didn't say something about the sorrounding.

[Gladiolix]

Solo kill means that only one person damaged the victim. Dps can run with pocket healer and a tank and get a lot of "solo" kills as long as the healer and tank don't damage the enemy. IMO solo kills should only be granted to people who are actually solo. Any group buffs or protection/healing received from anyone but yourself should not count as solo kill.