Discussion about tank in keep and defensive stat

[Hakker]

This is my ranking (from best to worst) of tanks that can survive in a fortress/keep with a warband. Keep in mind that I based the statistics on full Sovereign gear, so gear bonuses and ability bonuses do not stack (10% chance to increase Parry, Block, Disrupt and Dodge by 10% for 10 seconds with 7 piece). In a keep defense means you’re effectively always benefiting from it. Lastly, I am not taking the Rugged tactic into consideration since any tank can have it.

**Take in consideration thatI've chosen the four best defensive ones for each tank (In my opinion)

Tank Survival Ranking (Best to Worst):

1-Ironbreaker (Best)
2-Black Orc
3-Swordmaster
4-Chosen
5-Knight of the Blazing Sun
6-Blackguard (Worst)

1. Ironbreaker

Passive Effects:
20% damage reduction
10% block
-15% critical damage received

Abilities (100% success when used):
120 initiative
700 shield against magic
10% parry

Abilities that require you to hit a target (if the target defends, you get nothing):
990 armor
120 toughness
12% disrupt (5-second cooldown)

Summary: As we can see, the Ironbreaker has more defensive buffs than any other tank.

2. Black Orc

Passive Effects:
10% block
20% parry
+160 wound

Abilities (100% success when used):
40% block (5-second cooldown)
120 toughness (no cooldown)
20% magic resist for 5 second (no cooldown)
Shield for 500 damage (10-second cooldown)
10% damage reduction for 6 seconds (30-second cooldown)

Abilities that require you to hit a target (if the target defends, you get nothing):
+48 wound and 480 healing

Summary: The Black Orc should rank lower overall, but his main ability ("Can't Hit Me") make him a monster with only a 5-second cooldown.

3. Swordmaster

Passive Effects:
20% improved healing on self
15% block
20% disrupt

Abilities (100% success when used):
Shield for 500 damage (10-second cooldown)
990 armor (20-second cooldown)
10% damage reduction for 6 seconds (30-second cooldown)

Abilities that require you to hit a target (if the target defends, you get nothing):
10% parry (targeted ability)
+48 wound and 480 healing

Summary: The Swordmaster has many tools to survive in a long, intense fight. The 20% improved healing is incredible if you’re in a good warband. Although he does not possess any bonus Toughness, a toughness potion (providing 80 Toughness) makes him quite effective.

4. Chosen

Passive Effects:
15% improved healing on self
120 toughness
350 magic resist
25% parry
-10% critical damage received

Abilities (100% success when used):
None

Abilities that require you to hit a target (if the target defends, you get nothing):
10% parry (10 second cooldown)
-15% damage reduction for 10 seconds (20 second cooldown)
990 armor (20 second cooldown)

Summary: The Chosen has good passive tools. He would rank higher if his defensive ability activated 100% of the time. Since you have to wait 20 seconds if you miss the "Oppression" ability, and his magic resist is only mediocre (especially since a Shaman or Zealot in a good warband can buff you with magic resist), his overall effectiveness is somewhat limited.

5. Knight of the Blazing Sun

Passive Effects:
15% improved healing on self
300 magic resist
120 toughness
15% disrupt

Abilities (100% success when used):
50% damage reduction for 10 seconds (30-second cooldown)
990 armor for 10 seconds (30-second cooldown)

Abilities that require you to hit a target (if the target defends, you get nothing):
10% parry (when using a tactic)

Summary: The Knight of the Blazing Sun has solid passives and good survival tools, but only for a short period and with very long cooldowns. His main defensive ability (Vigilance) is effective, but after 10 seconds you’re likely to be overwhelmed. I do not recommend placing him on the front line during a fortress defense.

6. Blackguard

Passive Effects:
15% block
25% disrupt
25% parry

Abilities (100% success when used):
Shield for 900 damage (10-second cooldown)
990 armor for 10 seconds (20-second cooldown)
-15% critical hit reduction for 10 seconds (20-second cooldown)
40% block (20-second cooldown)

Abilities that require you to hit a target (if the target defends, you get nothing):
10% disrupt (5-second cooldown)
120 toughness (5-second cooldown)

Summary: Technically, the Blackguard has more tools for survival compared to the Black Orc. However, his 40% block with a 20-second cooldown is too lengthy. His other abilities suffer from the same issues as those of the Knight of the Blazing Sun—good survival tools, but they do not last long and have extended cooldowns. I do not recommend him for front-line defense in a fortress.

Final Thoughts on Defensive Priorities (from most to least important):

1-Damage reduction
2-More effective healing on you
3-Critical reduction
4-Critical damage reduction
5-Block
6-Toughness (not more than 1050)
7-Resist (not more than 600)
8-Armor
9-Parry
10-Disrupt (or substitute with Dodge if playing Destruction)
11-Dodge
12-Self-healing
13-Shields ability/Absorb/Bubble

What do you think?

Thank you!

[TrainInVain]

This was interesting and informative to read.

I find with Black guard you have one of the best stam regeneration in the game (driven by hate. So I frequently go for None Shall Pass right into hold the line and can sustain those 2 top defensive abilities better than any other tank, except for IB.

The most important part is the player. If they are afraid to die doesn't matter which tank they are. Sadly see it too often they won't push or hold a door.

[Hakker]

You're right about stamina/Action Point regeneration for the Ironbreaker and Black Guard. A 20-second cooldown for full regeneration is good. However, with Sovereign gear, you get even better stamina/AP regeneration.

Also, any high-level class can use a stamina/AP potion from Warcrest as well as a crafted stamina/AP potion. This means you have access to two stamina/AP potions, each with a 1-minute cooldown, allowing you to almost fully regenerate stamina/AP every 30 seconds using potions. That’s why I don’t take that into consideration.

[Florian90210]

IBs should be nerfed. No other tank can just freely go in and out in keep sieges.
Warbands doesn't even stop to kill them, it's just waste of time.

[Hakker]

The Ironbreaker is fine. Yes, he is tough, but he has his weaknesses. He is not the best in party composition and is harder to play compared to other tanks. Also, he cannot use his best skills freely since they require Grudge.

[bw10]

what is stamina? why do you post with gpt lmao

[Hakker]

For those who are confused, stamina, AP, and action points are all the same thing.

[Fontaami]

1-Damage reduction
2-More effective healing on you
3-Critical reduction
4-Critical damage reduction
5-Block
6-Toughness (not more than 1050)
7-Resist (not more than 600)
8-Armor
9-Parry
10-Disrupt (or substitute with Dodge if playing Destruction)
11-Dodge
12-Self-healing
13-Shield

My PoV as snb BG main tank:
1. Malekith's Bulwark tactic provides 25% DR on magical attacks overall, even though it also reduces incoming heal to you by 15%. Force of Fury ability before also did provide a small (-2%/-4%/-6%, depending on Hate level) damage reduction.
2. Dark Blessing tactic still provides +10% incoming heal to you
3. Already mentioned
4. Nothing to add
5. I want to point out that None Shall Pass ability, even though it indeed has 20 sec CD compared to BO's 5 sec CD mirror ability, allows to build up 100 Hate very fast. And 100 Hate means reaching max effectiveness of almost all your tactics (Block tactic) and abilities (BS, CtW etc). None Shall Pass also increases Block by 50%, not 40% (BO's Block channel the same). And it also does not slows BG at all, compared to BO.
6. Terryfing Foe tactic is amazing for snb BG, since it stacks with both Rugged tactic and Feeding on Weakness ability. I managed to reach 1366 toughness on that triple toughness stack.
7. Nothing to add
8. Can only add a small notion to M3 Armor of Eternal Servitude
9. I am surprised there's no mention of another amazing ability, Elite Training. It is basically 100% guarantee of either 4 Parries, or 4 Disrupts, or mix of 4 Parries and Disrupts with 30 sec CD. Hint: best synergy is with Endless Pursuit tactic
10. Disrupt is much more needed than Dodge for BG, since his tactic Endless Pursuit is a must have in a current RvR state
11. Nothing to add
12. Countless ages ago, the was an ability called Bolstering Anger, which actually did restore health by decreasing Hate (iirc, it was -10 Hate every 3 seconds). Why it removed and has not returned, is a mystery for me.
13. Don't know what that means, I assume the strongest shield available for each tanks? I run with Fortress shield myself.

[Hakker]

Hi Fontaami,

Regarding my analysis of the Black Guard, I’m using his four best defensive tactics:

1- Shielded by Hate (15% block), 2- Anger Drives Me (25% parry), 3- Rugged (160 toughness), 4- Shielding Anger (25% disrupt)

Why not choose the other tactics?

Malekith's Bulwark: Provides 25% damage reduction on magical attacks. Which DPS on Order use magical attacks? Only the Brightwizard does. Yes, you can have some Archmages and Runepriests, but it’s rare. Moreover, you sacrifice all incoming healing by 15%. This tactic has more negatives than positives, and I do not recommend it.

Dark Blessing: Gives +10% to direct heals cast on you only (DOT heals don’t count as direct heals). Compared to Malekith's Bulwark, it’s more beneficial than detrimental, but its bonus is very minor when compared to the Chosen’s 15% bonus to all incoming healing.

Terrifying Foe: This tactic looks good on paper, but it brings nothing to the table when you’re at RR80. Yes, if you combine Rugged with this tactic, you can achieve over 1200 toughness. However, what’s the point? At 1050, a DPS should invest in something other than strength because that’s the soft cap—attribute gains beyond that cap are reduced by half. Even if a DPS has 1050 strength and you have 1350 toughness, you will deal the same damage as someone with only 1050 toughness.

Now, let’s talk about abilities:

None Shall Pass: You’re right about this ability; its main goal is to build your hate quickly rather than to protect yourself. However, if no one interrupts you, it becomes incredibly effective at absorbing damage.

Elite Training: This is very good in 1v1 scenarios, but it’s useless in RVR battles and keep defense/offense. It only parries/disrupts 4 attacks with a 30-second cooldown. When you attack or defend a keep, you receive many hits in a fraction of a second, so this ability falls short.

Regarding the shield: I’m referring to absorb shields like the "Shield of Rage". It’s a good ability, to be honest, but in a large-scale RVR battle, this shield will be meaningless.

I hope I answered your question!

[Fontaami]

Hi Fontaami,

Regarding my analysis of the Black Guard, I’m using his four best defensive tactics:

1- Shielded by Hate (15% block), 2- Anger Drives Me (25% parry), 3- Rugged (160 toughness), 4- Shielding Anger (25% disrupt)

Why not choose the other tactics?

Malekith's Bulwark: Provides 25% damage reduction on magical attacks. Which DPS on Order use magical attacks? Only the Brightwizard does. Yes, you can have some Archmages and Runepriests, but it’s rare. Moreover, you sacrifice all incoming healing by 15%. This tactic has more negatives than positives, and I do not recommend it.

Dark Blessing: Gives +10% to direct heals cast on you only (DOT heals don’t count as direct heals). Compared to Malekith's Bulwark, it’s more beneficial than detrimental, but its bonus is very minor when compared to the Chosen’s 15% bonus to all incoming healing.

Terrifying Foe: This tactic looks good on paper, but it brings nothing to the table when you’re at RR80. Yes, if you combine Rugged with this tactic, you can achieve over 1200 toughness. However, what’s the point? At 1050, a DPS should invest in something other than strength because that’s the soft cap—attribute gains beyond that cap are reduced by half. Even if a DPS has 1050 strength and you have 1350 toughness, you will deal the same damage as someone with only 1050 toughness.

Now, let’s talk about abilities:

None Shall Pass: You’re right about this ability; its main goal is to build your hate quickly rather than to protect yourself. However, if no one interrupts you, it becomes incredibly effective at absorbing damage.

Elite Training: This is very good in 1v1 scenarios, but it’s useless in RVR battles and keep defense/offense. It only parries/disrupts 4 attacks with a 30-second cooldown. When you attack or defend a keep, you receive many hits in a fraction of a second, so this ability falls short.

Regarding the shield: I’m referring to absorb shields like the "Shield of Rage". It’s a good ability, to be honest, but in a large-scale RVR battle, this shield will be meaningless.

I hope I answered your question!

First of all, thanks for your reply.
Regarding the best defensive tactics, there's no need to even use Parry and Disrupt tactic as snb BG with 7 or 8 sov with +2 mid tree master bonus. My choice of tactics for keep/fort defense/offense is: Dark Blessing, Endless Pursuit, Terryfing Foe and Shielded by Hate. For this build I also always take Khaine's Warding M4 from the middle tree, which is much better than standart M4 during defenese/offense situation.
Malekith's Bulwark tactic reduces all magical damage, which means magical damage from all order classes (even mdps Jagged Edge tactic corporeal damage). And I can assure you, that there are still a lot of BWs, AMs and RPs full magical classes to fully utilize this tactic too.
Dark Blessings tactic affects direct healing abilities only, that seems true, but you somehow forgot about this tactic at all when describing BG in your list. There are also some pies and stews with an extra +10% incoming heal to you which I sometimes use too.
Terrifying Foe tactic is much better than standart Rugged tactic. It is also tied to a spammable ability, even if its get defended. With 100 Hate, it is a flat +45% increase to you current toughness level. Regarding of why you should have more than 1050 toughness as a snb tank, a lot of triumphant/victorious bonuses have -130 toughness debuff so that's why I sometimes combine Rugged with Terrifying Foe.
Elite Training ability work wonders with Endless Pursuit tactic, no matter if it is keep defense or offense or open field etc. Both Elite Training and Endless Pursuit also has a small AP regen too, which can be used immediately after for short-time HTL or None Shall Pass depending on situation. Having on-demand emergency speed boost saved myself more than once already, thanks to order magic rdps classes.
I did not get that shield means absorb, but I would like to point out, that Shield of Rage is not 900 absorb, but usually varies from 812 up to 895 points, depending on my current build.