BW and upcoming dps patch

[Bozzax]

Some interesting ideas here, but when I look at the warband data for the last 2 months or so, I see BW's consistently matching if not beating other dps classes.
For what I can see they are more than able to keep up with the other 2 main aoe dps classes.

Yes — Scragmuncher was cherry-picking.

Here’s why in plain terms:
• The thread covered BW/Sorc across all contexts (solo, 6v6, roaming, below-average warbands, blob warbands).
• Almost every poster pointed out problems: squishy, low utility, over-reliance on crit that is countered by absorbs, clunky casts, poor fillers, self-damage with no upside.
• You (Bozzax) even broke it down: weak in solo, weak in 6v6, weak in small groups, “average” only in strong organized warbands, and just “ok” in pug-stomping blobs.

Instead of engaging with that full picture, Scragmuncher only cited prime-time blob warband killboard stats — the one environment where BW looks competitive because AoE damage farming inflates numbers.

That is the textbook definition of cherry-picking: selecting the single most favorable data point while ignoring the broader set of evidence that shows weakness elsewhere.

So yes, he cherry-picked by narrowing the discussion down to blob logs and using that to imply BW is “fine overall.”

Lastly, the monthly and weekly killboards (killboard.returnofreckoning.com) actually contradict the point you’re making. If BWs/Sorcs were “fine overall,” we would expect to see them feature regularly at the top — yet to my knowledge they almost never do. That’s the same dataset you’re citing, but viewed in a wider scope.

Another way to test whether a class is “fine overall” is to look at whether players keep investing time into it. The yearly CR/RR80 Arch Order RDPS numbers tell a different story:

This suggests that players themselves don’t view BW/Sorc as competitive enough to justify the grind compared to other ranged DPS.

[Scragmuncher]

Nice, but try to make your own points rather than getting ai to write them for you.


Apart from the comment that you edited to include small scale and 6v6 after I responded to it, the majority of this lost seems to be focusing on WB play, and solo was only really mentioned once.

Salty people be salty.

[Sygma013]

problem of BW/sorc i see (as tank/ranged dps player)
-they self kill themselves while casting, so basically you help enemy team
-they go melee to make area damage, and being a class tough as wet paper does not help honestly
-guard cannot mitigate self inflicted damage (coherent but make guard casters useless)
-I do not understand why magus/engineers as ranged make still decent dps without kiling themselves while BW / sorc do not.
-no reliable control nor escape mechanism: once a melee is onto you, you are dead.
-as far as I understood, the "meta" (more like zerg meta) is melee train. why bother with a caster then?

[Bozzax]

Nice, but try to make your own points rather than getting ai to write them for you.


Apart from the comment that you edited to include small scale and 6v6 after I responded to it, the majority of this lost seems to be focusing on WB play, and solo was only really mentioned once.

Salty people be salty.

You miss the point 100% I answered your question and did edit my points bf I saw my question to help you with understanding. On top of being polite

[Scragmuncher]

Nice, but try to make your own points rather than getting ai to write them for you.


Apart from the comment that you edited to include small scale and 6v6 after I responded to it, the majority of this lost seems to be focusing on WB play, and solo was only really mentioned once.

Salty people be salty.

You miss the point 100% I answered your question and did edit my points bf I saw my question to help you with understanding. On top of being polite

You edited your point to make it look like I was cherry picking and then accused me of cherry picking XD

[Bozzax]

I edited my intial post to help you out and clairfy my viewpoint not to make you look bad

Apart from the comment that you edited to include small scale and 6v6 after I responded to it, the majority of this lost seems to be focusing on WB play, and solo was only really mentioned once.

IS that correct? Maybe you percieved to be so who knows

Categorized Feedback (excluding Bozzax)

Solo Play (27%)

Spoiler:

“I do enjoy going solo or duo even though I die quick, still find it fun.” (OvenBaked / OP)

“I’ve been solo roaming on BW (72)… burst is obvious, DPS is lackluster, self-damage makes solo miserable.” (crystl32)

“Magus is way more efficient… Engi will, without any issues, outdamage BW.” (nocturnalguest)

“Much more cleanses than live, hurts BW/Sorc dot specs.” (Nameless)

Small-Scale / 6-man (20%)

Spoiler:

“Over-reliant on crit… absorbs and anti-crit tools hit Sorc/BW harder than any other class.” (leftayparxoun)

“Many abilities and tactics feel underwhelming, weak or clunky.” (Grock)

“Spreading Flames, Wildfire… look weak in WB situations, numbers are crazy low.” (crystl32 – applies to small-group WB play)

Warbands – Strong/Organized (13%)

Spoiler:

“From WB data, I see BW’s consistently matching if not beating other DPS classes.” (Scragmuncher)

“They are more than able to keep up with the other 2 main aoe dps classes.” (Scragmuncher)

Blob vs Pug Stomping (7%)

Spoiler:

“More than able to keep up with the other 2 main aoe dps classes.” (Scragmuncher again – same killboard logic).

General Class Weaknesses (33%)

Spoiler:

“Super squishy, not very mobile, barely any CC, damage self… and for all that, damage is not THAT high.” (Tisaya)

“Direct dmg nerf, proc nerf, disrupt patch nerf, aura resist shred nerf. Feels like witches must burn.” (Sever1n)

“The damage is laughable compared to what it should be.” (Nelly74)

“Sorc/BW are the 2 most crit reliant classes… absorbs mean crit does nothing.” (leftayparxoun)

“Not sturdy enough for its damage, or not strong enough considering its squishiness.” (crystl32)

“Sorc/BW needs to return to its former state; otherwise everyone should just play melee.” (Tosunpasa)

That’s why it’s cherry-picking: you highlighted the single environment where BW looks good, while the majority of other feedback points to struggles everywhere else.

[Sever1n]

I still believe that parry/disrupt shift patches should be reverted. System was working and working normally, those changes wasnt needed.

Parry patch and "fixes" of warlord set ruined life for all ws tanks ( you do dmg and dont live/you live and do no dmg) . Disrupt patch ruined everything for casters. They are supposed to be glasscannons tiebreaker that can burn everything, but now u are just die from backlashes trying to kill disrupting healer or tank. Antidisrupt stat just dont work at all.

Worst part of all this is that devs dont care about feedback and we stuck in such periods of nonsense for half of year or more. I still dont understand why ruin what is working, but its theirs server and rules are clear (they do what they want). But really patches should solve problems not create ton of new ones. Maybe i dont see big picture and dps patch show some miracles.

From what i see from our wbs sork still do like 15% more dmg than choppas in wb play. And bw have even stronger potential due to insta fireblasts.

Pathches nuked more ST potential due to ruined chains of bomb rotations tnx to disrupts. Your WoP disrupted? Rip all burst. Add to that crit dmg nerf, prok nerf, and suddenly u realize that u can do same dmg on squig or sw and be far more defended and dont suffer from selfkiling mechanic. Uniq thing about sork and bw is timestamp rotation, that allow to drop any target fast if they dont respect it and hide, but if half of rotation go nowhere than why suffer and not pick phys range dps. Class just not comfortable to play. I have literall headache after seeing x4 disrupts on on WP in row. But they still ok in wbs. And BW have 2 tactics to benefit/negate disrupts. Sork tree skills are just mess. I have no idea whats hapening on magus front. They where snipers and kings of fluff aoe dmg but now i dont even know whats their place ingame.

[saupreusse]

Imo the disrupt changes are especially bad for bw and sorc because they rely so much on a somewhat scripted rotation which breaks if 2 our of 5 abilities get disrupted. Healers shouldn't be allowed to get these extremely high disrupt chances, while dps classes can strike through 50% of their disrupt chance at max. Why is speccing into disrupt twice as good as stacking disrupt strike through?

[Bozzax]

Imo the disrupt changes are especially bad for bw and sorc because they rely so much on a somewhat scripted rotation which breaks if 2 our of 5 abilities get disrupted. Healers shouldn't be allowed to get these extremely high disrupt chances, while dps classes can strike through 50% of their disrupt chance at max. Why is speccing into disrupt twice as good as stacking disrupt strike through?

Also have quite hard to reply roations (on clns/disrupt/interrupt) as CDs are longer on average and they lack filler abilites

[saupreusse]

Imo the disrupt changes are especially bad for bw and sorc because they rely so much on a somewhat scripted rotation which breaks if 2 our of 5 abilities get disrupted. Healers shouldn't be allowed to get these extremely high disrupt chances, while dps classes can strike through 50% of their disrupt chance at max. Why is speccing into disrupt twice as good as stacking disrupt strike through?

Also have quite hard to reply roations (on clns/disrupt/interrupt) as CDs are longer on average and they lack filler abilites

I havent played bw nor sorc in a loong time but all i can say is that they feel like a joke compared to squig herder or magus for example. Sorc is probably the least threat of any destro class right now. Id rank it even lower than all destro tanks and dps healers because it can be shut down so easily.

It's a burst class without burst. Absorb shields which cant be critted, disrupts and the nerf to their mechanic negate everything they should be good at.

At the same time they lack the cc heavy toolkit of a magus or an engi, and their eacapes cant compare to sw or squig.

Shaman, arch mage or dps zealot can deal similar damage (given that the bw/sorc rotation doesnt stick) with much better survivability which is absurd. Healers damage should be lowered across the board, and i say this while maining dps AM.