Archetype: Rock < Paper < Scissor <<< Atom Bomb

[gersy]

DPS being bottom floor is fine in a pvp game.

Good DPS with newbie/bad tank-healer gonna struggle a lot because game design is built around teamplay. Good tank-healer makes DPS life a lot easier and it should remain that way imo.

I agree, 100%. More people should realize this.

In addition, people should realize that this game is not based around 1v1 or soloing. Not even close. In fact it is very much the opposite if you pay attention to any of the basic, foundational game systems put in place from the very beginning.

[anstalt]

A dps should be able to kill a healer in dps spec faster then the dps healer the dps class.
A Tank should not be able to dps down a dps class without healer backup faster then the dps class can kill him.

This is the bit you've gotten wrong.

In rock -> paper -> scissors balance, tanks are supposed to beat DPS. DPS are supposed to kill healers, and healers supposed to kill tanks.

Now, im not saying that RoR has that level of balance working properly (it doesnt) but when you're talking about balance between roles, arguing that DPS should be able to kill everything is wrong. Thats not balance.

Dps should do dmg
Tanks should protect
Healers should heal

There are melee classes. Range classes. Swods, Axes, Bows, Guns, Staffs.
You want do to melee dmg? Pick a melee dps. You want range dmg? Pick a range shooter or caster.

To say that a Healer should be supposed to kill Tanks is the most ridicules claim. Are we going the Warcraft route now? Are healing Spells now deal Holy dmg to undead enemies?



I am not saying that DPS should kill everything. That was changed long ago on life War already, when they generalized Gear sets of all Dps Classes and took away the class specific Stats. Each dps set used to have stats that were exactly placed to respect their class and role dependent on their Armor type and if they had to spec into one single stat like Int or into multiple like Strg, Bal and WS on top.

But DPS should kill DPS.
Casters and ultra high armor pen melee should kill Tanks.
Healers should be the ones that prevent those Tanks from being killed with little effort because of the tanks high HP pools and mitigation.
Tanks should be the ones that prevent the Dps from killing Healers by intervention of the Dps reaching the Healer and by shielding the Healer.

You're getting yourself in a muddle over 1v1 balance and grp v grp balance.

Why is it ridiculous to say healers should be able to kill tanks? Thats a very standard balance choice for MMORPGs, as many (inc RoR) follow the rock-paper-scisscors route for balance. DPS should kill healers - their damage output should be higher than a healer can heal themselves. Healers should kill tanks - a tank's damage output should not be enough to overcome self-heals, so the healer can slowly whittle the tank down. Tanks should kill DPS - they should be able to mitigate a lot of damage, to the point that a tank does more damage to the DPS than the DPS does to the tank.

That's very standard, high level balance for a game using the trinity.


Yes, things get very muddy with all the hybrid specs and gear. But at the same time, just try running dungeons or warbands using hybrid setups. A DPS shaman or AM is practically useless in a warband. A 2hander tank is likewise pretty ineffective in a warband situation - the mitigation you give up in order to do damage is really noticable. You're just gonna melt trying to push through a funnel!

Hybrids really only shine solo or small scale.

But they also have their weaknesses. My DPS shaman gets his ass kicked all the time by white lions and AMs. My 2hander tank gets his ass kicked by virtually all healers and anyone that can kite.



So, I guess I'm just confused as to what you're asking for in the end. It sounds like you don't want rock-paper-scissors style balance between classes. 1v1 balance is impossible without removing combat roles and lobotimising classes. So, do you just want your own classes buffed? Just want DPS to be godlike across the board? Is it specifically hybrid specs you want removing? If you get rid of hybrid specs, good luck finding tanks and healers! So many would quit because you'd basically be making them a grp-only class.

[manaworm]

All that you said is not false but...

The most O.P class in duel now is a dps class as tanky as a tank. Parry Regen build WE and WH...

A good S.W can infinite kite you and hit 2000+ inavoidable hit.

A good and Well stuffed SORC can do 10k damage in 5 sec and destroy a lot of class too...

A Choppa / Slayer parry regen spec can hit like a truck and survive very Well

Maybe you need more game.experience.

[Nikt]

As a complete new player—I even created a forum account yesterday—I can say this is a problem for new players. I play Marauder, and everyone says new Mara = Monstro + 3 x Fleshrender + regen chest.

It confuses me that DPS focuses more on regeneration than DPS. But its working in everywhere if i can say something.

[Grock]

In rock -> paper -> scissors balance, tanks are supposed to beat DPS. DPS are supposed to kill healers, and healers supposed to kill tanks.

Wanna comment on this because people always bring up this idea and entirely misunderstand what it means.

To use this idea correctly when designing a game you must apply to player's active choices during gameplay.

In fighting games, this principle is applied to actions and attacks - Attack beats Grab, Grab beats Block, and Block 'beats' an Attack. In melee combat games like Chivalry or Mordhau you'll find something akin to Attack > Feint > Parry > Attack relationship.

In card games it is applied to cards, not to decks. In RTS games it is applied to units, not to factions. You get the principle.
In MMOs it should be applied to abilities, spells, consumables - not to player classes.

The only situation where you apply this principle to class/character design are games where choosing and/or switching your character is part of the actual game session: MOBA games, Overwatch, party-based RPG games and so on
In MOBA games there's usually an important picking phase where teams take turns choosing their heroes and banning heroes they dont want enemies to take. Its a whole chess of its own. Teams plan their strategy and synchronize their choices, while trying to counter the opposing team's plans.
In those games it makes perfect sense to have one class counter another class, since players expected to make an informed class choice at the start of the match.

But in open world pvp mmo this would make no sense, not even in organized group vs group environment - because theres no picking phase and no class swapping once the match (or fight) has begun.

Secondly, in the context of a team game comparing support roles to core/carry roles as a direct 1v1 match up and who kills who just makes no sense even beyond whats explained above.
Tanks "counter" dps by protecting teammates, not by killing the dps, Healers "counter" others by simply outhealing the damage they do, not by outdamaging them, and so on. The logic is built around group functions.
But if we do look at actual 1v1 match-ups in isolated duelling or solo roaming environment the chances should still be equal, everyone should have answers to others moves and actions - no one should beat another by default just because the match up is made that way.

[abezverkhiy]

The most O.P class in duel now is a dps class as tanky as a tank. Parry Regen build WE and WH...

The reason why I chose to play parry WH build is only because glass cannon WH cannot kill anyone alone. This way I have chances to pierce through shields and prevent lifetapping.

Yeah the game is not about 1vs1 and blah-blah but plenty of wb leaders say no to WHs so... Playing alone.

[Hazmy]

DPS is bottom-floor in what way? Because in a group-environment certainly not, and I think we have a really good variety of careers and specs that are very viable nowadays, even competitive.

DPS Tanks and DPS Healers are also unable to replace actual DPS spots in group play, except for a few cases in small-scale which is the result of the last major rework. DPS Tanks have better reason to complain than anyone else in the game as they have the least amount of, and least important content that they are viable for.

If you are specifically cherry-picking solo gameplay and 1v1s, which is an extreme case of specialized content, then you will also have to go to extremes to make it viable for yourself.
Some classes will be better at it, because the game is not designed for solo and 1v1 content, nor should it be any priority as long as the game is facing major issues with large-scale balance, RvR Campaign Issues, SCs not working etc.

MMORPGs are not a competitive genre, they are not a MOBA, they are not a fighting game, but an RPG. Some classes will excel at more things than others - but not everything needs to be able to do everything and have a chance to win. Now for what WAR is designed for... which is medium to large scale PvP... every career is perfectly viable, except for WE and WH.

PS.: Even in the case of Witch Hunters, they are actually viable in Warbands, but the reality is that 99% of WHs don't know how to do that and it's not worth the hassle. Even then as far as I know this problem will be fixed with the DPS Rework so even they will have a fix spot.

[Grock]

Y'all keep calling 1v1 a "cherry-picking extreme case of specialized content" and saying that game is about other things as if 90% of all youtube content isn't about solo roaming adventures
Playing solo, whether true 1v1/1vX ganking or following other groups, has always been extremely popular in WAR.

Being able to play on your own terms at any time of the day just makes the game better. You dont have to schedule play sessions with other people, you dont have to wait till someone comes online, you just walk into the zone and have fun, and you're free to step away at any point, coz you dont have a group of people depending on you.

You want a real team-focused game experience? Lock the zones behind matchmaking with a fixed population cap, put every player that joins in into automatically made warband. Just like scenarios.
Open RvR isn't about that. Open RvR is about freedom to engage in it however you want, and playing solo has always been a major part of what makes these games fun, whether it is WAR, Planetside, Guild Wars, ESO or anything else.

not everything needs to be able to do everything and have a chance to win

This is pretty much the exact opposite of the design philosophy of modern MMOs, and they didnt arrive at this point by accident, its what keeps games alive. This isnt 2003 anymore.