Def WE: Fight Denied

[DefinitelynotaSkaven]

Please do not lie that regen WE lose anything.
Ofc there is no such big crits like in glass cannon build but witchbrew build was never about it.

You still try to hide fact that in full regen/def build WE can cap strenght to melt ppl with corporeal WB damage and also other dot spells. This spec has also access to HD, spell immune, Vanish and KD.

This spec win vs almost all dps or tanks and even can kill healers.

What is the cost? 1) it takes few seconds more than burst spec. 2) if You dont have enough damage to kill turtle or heal u can go away.

Balanced AF. You can ez check on killboard that this spec is also effective in grp play like scenarios. Check for example Solater.

I can't speak for what other WEs are doing in their defensive specs, but what you've listed is certainly not true for most of the defensive WEs I know.


For starters, if you're going full defensive, you need the left tree to pick up the extra 10% parry. Rest goes in middle tree for witchbrew and heal debuff - because your damage is much lower, you need that magic damage. This means that in defensive spec, you don't have vanish or knockdown. Without the vanish, you also lack your 2nd leap.

As for who defensive WEs lose to?

1) 2h tanks - im talking equal gear/skill ofc, lower ranked 2h tanks are easy prey. But a BiS 2h tank has more health, more armour, more parry, similar regen and their damage aint too far off either. They can parry most of your attacks, mitigate most of those that do get through, and they can hit you hard. When im solo roaming on my 2h BO, witch hunters are my favourite target! Likewise, on my WE, I know some of the good 2h order tanks and I'll avoid them most of the time (unless im bored ofc!!!).

2) SnB tanks - they simply have too much mitigation and regen for you to kill. You might be able to do it if you're willing for fight for ages, but chances are your fight will get interrupted before you can finish it.


Now, this is how its supposed to work in the rock-paper-scissors style of balance: tanks should be able to kill WEs. Now, that said, WEs do have plenty of escape skills to get away from tanks, and 2h tanks often give up utility in order to do damage. Between back-leap, root break, M1 parry and sprint elixir, you can often escape if you want to. But if a tank forces you to run, you've lost


Other classes you can lose to:

3) WHs - I feel def WE is stronger than def WH, but if you are a defensive WE than you're vulnerable to glass-cannon WHs. They can knock you down and remove most of your health before you stand up again. Your high parry and regen isn't enough to overcome that initial deficit.

4) WLs - again, talking purely equal rank/skill, but a good WL will bypass half your parry, all your armour, has better damage than you and great mobility to boot. Obviously, their spec makes a huge difference, same as WE. Some WLs just seem to drop like a sack of ****.

5) Full-spec healers - defensive WE lacks the damage to get through a full healer's healing. Like, not even close. Most of the time, a healer will be able to run away from you. The way to win is through grinding them down - keeping pressure on them whilst draining their AP, if you're lucky they might run out of AP at the wrong time and be vulnerable.

6) DPS RPs - their damage is higher than you, their damage avoids all your mitigation, and their self-healing is better than yours.



Again, all of this is comparison of same rank / same skill level. If the WEs target is lower ranked then ofc their chance of success will be much higher. But thats true of just about every class out there: if you're higher geared and ranked, you'll probably win.

I don't normally comment on the forum much, but this comment feels a bit off. My current RR68 WE with regen build literally melts anything you mention above(except def WL and dps healer, I can only kill if they are really bad) solo SnB I just ignore since it a forever dancing and super bored, and rarely lose to any 2h tank, melt a lot of BiS guys unless they are super high on defense and regen, which most of the time I just self punt away and easily escape them(Why even bother? We can just ignore anyone if you know you can't kill them.) Tbh, compared to my main roaming toon which is tank (SM), I feel like my WE is far superior in small-scale even though it is not BiS yet. If you truly lose to the guys you mention above, I think there is something seriously wrong with your build.

[ponko22]

Please do not lie that regen WE lose anything.
Ofc there is no such big crits like in glass cannon build but witchbrew build was never about it.

You still try to hide fact that in full regen/def build WE can cap strenght to melt ppl with corporeal WB damage and also other dot spells. This spec has also access to HD, spell immune, Vanish and KD.

This spec win vs almost all dps or tanks and even can kill healers.

What is the cost? 1) it takes few seconds more than burst spec. 2) if You dont have enough damage to kill turtle or heal u can go away.

Balanced AF. You can ez check on killboard that this spec is also effective in grp play like scenarios. Check for example Solater.

I can't speak for what other WEs are doing in their defensive specs, but what you've listed is certainly not true for most of the defensive WEs I know.


For starters, if you're going full defensive, you need the left tree to pick up the extra 10% parry. Rest goes in middle tree for witchbrew and heal debuff - because your damage is much lower, you need that magic damage. This means that in defensive spec, you don't have vanish or knockdown. Without the vanish, you also lack your 2nd leap.

As for who defensive WEs lose to?

1) 2h tanks - im talking equal gear/skill ofc, lower ranked 2h tanks are easy prey. But a BiS 2h tank has more health, more armour, more parry, similar regen and their damage aint too far off either. They can parry most of your attacks, mitigate most of those that do get through, and they can hit you hard. When im solo roaming on my 2h BO, witch hunters are my favourite target! Likewise, on my WE, I know some of the good 2h order tanks and I'll avoid them most of the time (unless im bored ofc!!!).

2) SnB tanks - they simply have too much mitigation and regen for you to kill. You might be able to do it if you're willing for fight for ages, but chances are your fight will get interrupted before you can finish it.


Now, this is how its supposed to work in the rock-paper-scissors style of balance: tanks should be able to kill WEs. Now, that said, WEs do have plenty of escape skills to get away from tanks, and 2h tanks often give up utility in order to do damage. Between back-leap, root break, M1 parry and sprint elixir, you can often escape if you want to. But if a tank forces you to run, you've lost


Other classes you can lose to:

3) WHs - I feel def WE is stronger than def WH, but if you are a defensive WE than you're vulnerable to glass-cannon WHs. They can knock you down and remove most of your health before you stand up again. Your high parry and regen isn't enough to overcome that initial deficit.

4) WLs - again, talking purely equal rank/skill, but a good WL will bypass half your parry, all your armour, has better damage than you and great mobility to boot. Obviously, their spec makes a huge difference, same as WE. Some WLs just seem to drop like a sack of ****.

5) Full-spec healers - defensive WE lacks the damage to get through a full healer's healing. Like, not even close. Most of the time, a healer will be able to run away from you. The way to win is through grinding them down - keeping pressure on them whilst draining their AP, if you're lucky they might run out of AP at the wrong time and be vulnerable.

6) DPS RPs - their damage is higher than you, their damage avoids all your mitigation, and their self-healing is better than yours.



Again, all of this is comparison of same rank / same skill level. If the WEs target is lower ranked then ofc their chance of success will be much higher. But thats true of just about every class out there: if you're higher geared and ranked, you'll probably win.

As I've said in other threads, please always speak logically. It seems all your classes are Dest-based and you've never used Order. If you're going to talk about WH, WL, RP, or Tank, please always describe your intended Order class configuration. You should be able to explain it logically using Career Builder.

3) but a good WL will bypass half your parry, all your armor

Here, you're making an illogical statement because you don't know anything about WL, so let me just point that out. (Regardless of whether it's strong or weak)

I assume you're talking about a defense-focused Warlord, so I'll proceed with that assumption. Please explain why half of the parries can be ignored. Tactics (TAC) only accounts for 10% without any skills that would allow for that. If you're using talismans, it will affect your defensive build, so balance is important. (However, it seems you're ignoring the discussion about equipment.)

Also, please explain why a WL "completely" ignores armor. You're probably referring to Lion's armor debuff and the WL's own armor debuff, but these two don't overlap. Therefore, the main body's armor debuff only reduces damage by 1560, but a typical DEF WE has around 2500, and a typical DEF WL doesn't build Weapon Skills. While there is a TAC with armor penetration, it's in the AoE tree, so it's not acquired. Other skills with armor penetration exist, but they require attacking from behind and only ignore 15%.

Furthermore, for a DEF WL, acquiring the Guardian tree up to level 15 is standard, and acquiring the main body's armor debuff skill requires sacrificing some useful Axeman skills (for example, 10sec 25% more damage for bursts, chance to critical hit by 15% TAC).

Could you tell me what kind of build you mean by "excellent WL"?


・Critical configuration
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,9216,9200

・Armor Debuff configuration
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 6,9200,823

・Half-finished
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 6,9200,823

[anstalt]

Seems I got some people worked up! Wasn't intended that way, just trying to point out that regardless of your opinions on overpowered WEs, they still die.....a lot.

and sure, I dont play order so I dont know specific specs.

With WLs, I dont know the specs but it feels like two varieties. First is a pet build, the pet seems to hit like a truck on top of the WL himself, they can keep me slowed so getting back-hits to bypass armour is harder, and they can sprint away to regen if they need. Other type of WL just seems to hit hard, bypassing my defences, high arpen for my low armour, so I drop.


In terms of parry:

1000 str = 10% parry strikethrough
Tactic = another 10% strikethrough
Gear often adds more bits of strikethrough here and there

So, 20%-25% strikethrough, vs a WE which will be 40-50% parry if they're stacking it. So, yeh, they're bypassing half my parry. And yes, I know its a choice, and not everyone will choose the strikethrough tactic. Just as my choice to stack parry makes me better against mdps, but worse against magic.


And again, we're talking purely 1v1, same skill/gear. I've done a fair amount of solo roaming on a bunch of classes so im alright. Not great, but alright. The WLs, 2h tanks, DPS runnies etc who are better players than me still kill me easily. Equal skill its a toss-up.

But ofc if you're 1v1ing someone that just runs with the blob all day, then ofc they're gonna be easy kills.


Finally, really makes me laugh for the irony, but defending WL because they have to choose which skills/abilities/setups they want, while attacking WE and ignoring that they also have to choose.......

[Lescargo]

I don't normally comment on the forum much, but this comment feels a bit off. My current RR68 WE with regen build literally melts anything you mention above(except def WL and dps healer, I can only kill if they are really bad) solo SnB I just ignore since it a forever dancing and super bored, and rarely lose to any 2h tank, melt a lot of BiS guys unless they are super high on defense and regen, which most of the time I just self punt away and easily escape them(Why even bother? We can just ignore anyone if you know you can't kill them.) Tbh, compared to my main roaming toon which is tank (SM), I feel like my WE is far superior in small-scale even though it is not BiS yet. If you truly lose to the guys you mention above, I think there is something seriously wrong with your build.

dude keep posting and ignoring what peoples said before, nothing more we can do at this point.

his armory : https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 462/armory