Give WP/DoK a gap closer.

[Kyouaku]

Well i was actually replying to Cullenn so i wasnt involved into discussion about your "points" as i see them unsupported by any data while also contradicting my experienece and actually rather your feelings (no offense) so i refrained from comments.
It took me no further then to press few buttons on killboard to find this one, its literally a second 6v6 match on first page atm https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 2131] here
For me this looks like a solid prove that you are not right

So you call my experience "Feelings" and call your experience "experience" lol

I supported my claims with concrete data, I explained exactly what tools DPS DoK was missing that other DPS have and how those are important. You have not, and to be frank, likely can not, refute those claims. DoK has had too much removed and too little given back.

You use a ranked match where a DPS DoK has a guild group that has run together for years vrs a pug group as "Proof" thjat I am not right.........................................................................................?

Your way of thinking is so absurd it's commical. You're like some political online commentator that cant understand what people say and just think self serving nonsense lol.

Care to try again, and be honest with me this time?

[nocturnalguest]

Well i was actually replying to Cullenn so i wasnt involved into discussion about your "points" as i see them unsupported by any data while also contradicting my experienece and actually rather your feelings (no offense) so i refrained from comments.
It took me no further then to press few buttons on killboard to find this one, its literally a second 6v6 match on first page atm https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 2131] here
For me this looks like a solid prove that you are not right

So you call my experience "Feelings" and call your experience "experience" lol

I supported my claims with concrete data, I explained exactly what tools DPS DoK was missing that other DPS have and how those are important. You have not, and to be frank, likely can not, refute those claims. DoK has had too much removed and too little given back.

You use a ranked match where a DPS DoK has a guild group that has run together for years vrs a pug group as "Proof" thjat I am not right.........................................................................................?

Your way of thinking is so absurd it's commical. You're like some political online commentator that cant understand what people say and just think self serving nonsense lol.

Care to try again, and be honest with me this time?

Its still your pug issue. You say DPS DoK is lacking damage but then i provide an evidence that spec works in organised environment you completely backdown and fall into all this pug thingy. Why DoK is higher then choppa tell me? Choppa obviously has more fluff by design with FS. And yes, i use organised group as an example because thats where DPS DoK works. Groups are build with it. You can debunk that? No, you cant, full killboard of groups with DPS DoKs. Either of us care to parse killboard like e.g. kpi did for strict statistics? I wont bother i know the truth already. Go parse to debunk me if you wish so. What else concrete data, WL is more common? Sure. Easier to play with lower efforts? Debatable, but i kinda agree here too however there is a huge difference between regular WL and some 6v6 elitist.

It doesnt matter what DoK is missing or not. It currently functions great in organised environment. It has tons of damage and a solid meta pick for proper group.

If you would be giving some concrete data, be sure id comment. But all you provide is nothing new or interesting, yes it struggles to perform if you pug, but DPS DoK is mighty fine if you actually put efforts and organise.

[Cullenn]

Then just give them a gap closer for small scale/solo roam. Most RDPS can do solo roam, magus, squigs, shamans, etc. Let WP have one too then.

Its nowhere near bad specs for solo roaming, especially WP, so we have to be honest here too lol. Also it doesnt work like this, you just cant be serious. There is no option to just give them this or that for solo roam, you will give "an overbuffed" class yet another tool which will affect other gameplay (group) too and affect quite significantly. DPS healers dominate solo scene already big times and will do so even more extremely if you dont provide lots of selfsustain, regen, absorbs or whatever else for other specs/classes.

And here, look, i personally have 0 issues with WEs, be they def, double/triple/quadrupel leaping all around. But e.g. you have. So with your logic and your pov, imagine someone ask to just straight up buff WE with another tool with nothing being taken off. Same logic, same situation - too many tools for 1 class, especially for classes that have 3 different specs and completely meta, welcome in any size of group anyday. I be fine with that, i dont like perfect mirror balance then everything is unified with zero outliners but what about your fellow solo heroes folks who are present on forums en mass? Tears will definitely flow... of an ocean size lol. Obvious. Like imagine if someone ask for a charge on WE/WH cause damn why not, IHD for WL/engi/magi, none conditional KD for slayer/choppa etc. Just cmon... A circus

I totally get what half of people say here who oppose your suggestion. They are damn correct too, cant dismiss or debunk their points. On a serious note and looking from balance team pov completely obvious that overally dps WP/DoK are highely likely to get nerfs and definitely not buffs or other tools so weight your efforts creating another thread with all this, you got a great advice in the beginning from Giladar.

Are you... Serious? I see a problem in a melee dps healer but not in WE? just because i'm asking a melee dps that does not have the same damage as a normal dps and self heal can be easily countered with m1 parry of dps or moving away, while WE can literally run away from 6 man fights, regen, do endless damages, and be though as a tank? Are you serious? This is completly unbeliavable man, i'm sorry.

[live4treasure]

This thread is essentially a bunch of people with no understanding of why DPS WP/DoK is good talking about how bad it is, with the voices of those who actually know what they are talking about being drowned out in a sea of conjecture and bad faith arguments.

What this is, is a bunch of solo players angry that they get killed in 1v1s against ranged classes, and trying to make arguments under the veneer of a teamplay perspective in order to try to "legitimize" their demands.

It's sad to see that we've gotten to the point that those of you who I am talking about, are willing to pretend like you know what you are talking about in order to get your way.

Initially, I wanted to make a detailed post trying to explain exactly what unique advantages this class has that balances out the lack of mobility, but I think it's a pointless endeavour with the crowd here. I however hope the balance team doesn't cave to the demands of the maliciously ignorant.

[Cullenn]

This thread is essentially a bunch of people with no understanding of why DPS WP/DoK is good talking about how bad it is, with the voices of those who actually know what they are talking about being drowned out in a sea of conjecture and bad faith arguments.

What this is, is a bunch of solo players angry that they get killed in 1v1s against ranged classes, and trying to make arguments under the veneer of a teamplay perspective in order to try to "legitimize" their demands.

It's sad to see that we've gotten to the point that those of you who I am talking about, are willing to pretend like you know what you are talking about in order to get your way.

Initially, I wanted to make a detailed post trying to explain exactly what unique advantages this class has that balances out the lack of mobility, but I think it's a pointless endeavour with the crowd here. I however hope the balance team doesn't cave to the demands of the maliciously ignorant.

Maliciously ignorant? Are you satisfied how things are? They already killed the shield build, removed snare, buffed WE to the sky, and we are the maliciously ignorant? is it so wrong to ask for some balancing? No one here called you that, if you don't want to be part of it just ignore the post, don't go on calling others that, is that such a big problem for you?

[Kyouaku]

Says he has a super good argument but refuses to say it and just calls people names

I mean, saying you have a super good argument and then name calling as a jsutification as to why you wont share your super secret ultimate conclusive argument is gradeschool behavior lol

I wonder if we live in the same universe.... As I have shown in this and my previous post, it is Nocturnal who is saying I said things I never did and is arguing in bad faith, I have never strawmaned or behaved dishonestly here... Can you point to a single instance of me doing what you said I did....? If you can not, maybe it is....you?

I jsut have a rr85 DoK with more organized SC experience on it then anyone here lol.

You say DPS DoK is lacking damage but then i provide an evidence that spec works in organised environment you completely backdown and fall into all this pug thingy.
It doesnt matter what DoK is missing or not. It currently functions great in organised environment. It has tons of damage and a solid meta pick for proper group.

If you would be giving some concrete data, be sure id comment. But all you provide is nothing new or interesting, yes it struggles to perform if you pug, but DPS DoK is mighty fine if you actually put efforts and organise.

So you did not choose to start being honest, I said that a DoK can do well if carried by its team(As can any DPS), so you are now arguing against yourself while you pretend I have said the things you have lied about me saying.

Will you apologize for strawmanning me?

You just keep making stuff up, I have hundreds of games as a DPS DoK in comms as a 6 man, and I have been more then clear that I think it is bad there as well, why just lie and say I am not....?

In SCs, a ranged DPS, or a DPS with good means to get on target, or other utility like a pull, is ffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more useful then a slow one that can be easily managed by a tank lol(And ****, even other DPS can easily counterplay it). It used to have the awesome devour essence to counter this, and utility to make it super worth, but with a lot of it being removed but the bad mobility remaining leaves it in a bad spot

You keep lying about things I have said, please stop.

[kleinbuchstabe]

What this is, is a bunch of solo players angry that they get killed in 1v1s against ranged classes, and trying to make arguments under the veneer of a teamplay perspective in order to try to "legitimize" their demands.

I thought im done here in this thread, but since you asked for it, here is my salt.
Im not a solo player. I played dps dok on live, and started on this server when t3 was pretty fresh. So I have been through all states of being with the dok, knowing all the patches and reworks on this class. Im not a pug player, i only run in guild and other groups. So im pretty sure that i know what im talking about, when i recommend to people, that they should better pick another mdps class. Its not about that the class is totaly unplayable or bad at dps. Its about a gap closer, read the damn topic.

The only argument the contrary side is bringin up here is: In a perfect group environment, wich balances out his gamebreaking mobility weakpoint, the dok/wp is working very fine. Wow, what a suprise... in that manner i can play down every issue for every class, cause its always possible to compensate everything, when you build a specific group around it to do so. But what it means is: This class needs a carry to work good. What makes him a niche pick, for melee SC groups, built around his needs, and thats the only way to play him properly (wich seems to be totaly fine for the contra side here). And therefore, its better to pick another class, if you dont have your perfect premade six man environment available every day, wich carries his "special needs".

And on top, you absolutely overestimate his "unique advantages". They nerfed most of it down to insignificance. I know dps dok very well, probably better than you, and even most people who play one, cause i have over a decade experience with it. Im also sure that you dont have any own practical experience with dps dok/wp, so keep your theory-build-craft-experience for yourself and stop blaming people for asking for a needed ability, wich is an issue indeed for a big part of the gameplay, and makes the class a bad choice compared to all other mdps classes. This forum is full of tears and complains about the biggest nonsens. But woe to anyone who dares to bring up a problem that actually exists.

[live4treasure]

This thread is essentially a bunch of people with no understanding of why DPS WP/DoK is good talking about how bad it is, with the voices of those who actually know what they are talking about being drowned out in a sea of conjecture and bad faith arguments.

What this is, is a bunch of solo players angry that they get killed in 1v1s against ranged classes, and trying to make arguments under the veneer of a teamplay perspective in order to try to "legitimize" their demands.

It's sad to see that we've gotten to the point that those of you who I am talking about, are willing to pretend like you know what you are talking about in order to get your way.

Initially, I wanted to make a detailed post trying to explain exactly what unique advantages this class has that balances out the lack of mobility, but I think it's a pointless endeavour with the crowd here. I however hope the balance team doesn't cave to the demands of the maliciously ignorant.

Maliciously ignorant? Are you satisfied how things are? They already killed the shield build, removed snare, buffed WE to the sky, and we are the maliciously ignorant? is it so wrong to ask for some balancing? No one here called you that, if you don't want to be part of it just ignore the post, don't go on calling others that, is that such a big problem for you?

DPS WP is:
S tier in scenarios
S tier in city
High B tier in warbands

DoK is:
S tier in scenarios
Low A tier in city
B tier in warbands

The only game mode they struggle in is clearly solo, which is not a game mode that's balanced around, because this is a team-based rvr game, and the extent of your contribution as a solo player within the campaign is carrying boxes to the keep while warbands fight for main objectives and try to win enough to undermine enemy morale.

Yes, I am satisfied with the state of the class. Why aren't you satisfied?

Because you got killed in 1v1 by a rdps.

And for the record, shield WP and DoK are also S tier in city. Nothing has been killed. You are simply trying to make it work in a scenario it wasn't designed for. In a scenario the game isn't designed for, frankly.

But you've been told this repeatedly.

[Kyouaku]

What this is, is a bunch of solo players angry that they get killed in 1v1s against ranged classes, and trying to make arguments under the veneer of a teamplay perspective in order to try to "legitimize" their demands.

I thought im done here in this thread, but since you asked for it, here is my salt.
Im not a solo player. I played dps dok on live, and started on this server when t3 was pretty fresh. So I have been through all states of being with the dok, knowing all the patches and reworks on this class. Im not a pug player, i only run in guild and other groups. So im pretty sure that i know what im talking about, when i recommend to people, that they should better pick another mdps class. Its not about that the class is totaly unplayable or bad at dps. Its about a gap closer, read the damn topic.

The only argument the contrary side is bringin up here is: In a perfect group environment, wich balances out his gamebreaking mobility weakpoint, the dok/wp is working very fine. Wow, what a suprise... in that manner i can play down every issue for every class, cause its always possible to compensate everything, when you build a specific group around it to do so. But what it means is: This class needs a carry to work good. What makes him a niche pick, for melee SC groups, built around his needs, and thats the only way to play him properly (wich seems to be totaly fine for the contra side here). And therefore, its better to pick another class, if you dont have your perfect premade six man environment available every day, wich carries his "special needs".

And on top, you absolutely overestimate his "unique advantages". They nerfed most of it down to insignificance. I know dps dok very well, probably better than you, and even most people who play one, cause i have over a decade experience with it. Im also sure that you dont have any own practical experience with dps dok/wp, so keep your theory-build-craft-experience for yourself and stop blaming people for asking for a needed ability, wich is an issue indeed for a big part of the gameplay, and makes the class a bad choice compared to all other mdps classes. This forum is full of tears and complains about the biggest nonsens. But woe to anyone who dares to bring up a problem that actually exists.

Really well said, I hope the devs read this

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... /scenarios
I have over 1k SCs as a DPS DoK, probs 80%~ of my SCs where organized in coms as a DoK(Running solo pre matchmaker was pretty much an auto loss), I know the class inside and out as well, dont listen to these people who give baseless teirlists that are clearly the product of a mind that makes unsound judgements, listen to the people who actually have the experience and pinpoint the exact issues.

[live4treasure]

What this is, is a bunch of solo players angry that they get killed in 1v1s against ranged classes, and trying to make arguments under the veneer of a teamplay perspective in order to try to "legitimize" their demands.

I thought im done here in this thread, but since you asked for it, here is my salt.
Im not a solo player. I played dps dok on live, and started on this server when t3 was pretty fresh. So I have been through all states of being with the dok, knowing all the patches and reworks on this class. Im not a pug player, i only run in guild and other groups. So im pretty sure that i know what im talking about, when i recommend to people, that they should better pick another mdps class. Its not about that the class is totaly unplayable or bad at dps. Its about a gap closer, read the damn topic.

The only argument the contrary side is bringin up here is: In a perfect group environment, wich balances out his gamebreaking mobility weakpoint, the dok/wp is working very fine. Wow, what a suprise... in that manner i can play down every issue for every class, cause its always possible to compensate everything, when you build a specific group around it to do so. But what it means is: This class needs a carry to work good. What makes him a niche pick, for melee SC groups, built around his needs, and thats the only way to play him properly (wich seems to be totaly fine for the contra side here). And therefore, its better to pick another class, if you dont have your perfect premade six man environment available every day, wich carries his "special needs".

And on top, you absolutely overestimate his "unique advantages". They nerfed most of it down to insignificance. I know dps dok very well, probably better than you, and even most people who play one, cause i have over a decade experience with it. Im also sure that you dont have any own practical experience with dps dok/wp, so keep your theory-build-craft-experience for yourself and stop blaming people for asking for a needed ability, wich is an issue indeed for a big part of the gameplay, and makes the class a bad choice compared to all other mdps classes. This forum is full of tears and complains about the biggest nonsens. But woe to anyone who dares to bring up a problem that actually exists.

I've been to organized city matches on a DPS WP multiple times. The class performs very well, but it is the better of the two between DPS DoK and DPS WP. I've played against good DPS DoKs in the same environments. I've played against good shield DoKs too, and with good shield WPs.

The thing is that this "carried" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not being carried by your team, it's building a comp that synergizes with each other. I don't know what you even envision in your mind when you say carried, and I don't know what your gaming group is like, or how they prefer to play. There are many 40-50 year old players on this server who think they understand more about the game than they do, and perhaps they are simply unwilling to give your DoK as it is currently a chance? Or are we talking about a pug environment, where you have a random setup and you physically can't decide your own group compsition? Are these things you're supposed to consider when you talk about balance?