Give WP/DoK a gap closer.

[Cullenn]

Cullenn, man. Look, we definitely can go down further and obviously i know how other classes dmg looks in bis in different gamemodes, we can cherry abilities per class and do any other kind of pointless stuff. But! there is also an option of you just rereading few my posts here and either tie some detailed specific questions so i can explain myself better because i already addressed that all.

Also, same from me, with all the respect ive gave an answer you ask from gersy. Charge will increase their survivability for organised play. Thats most impactful outcome. For solo/pug you will have much better time vs rdps. What is not clear on this? If you don't understand how big it is just let us know. Also i repeat myself for third time, im not against that myself but its just me, worries of people like e.g. noronn who is elite player are concerns you can't simply discard with some random crap (no offense man, you keep discussion well and civil kudos for that but arguments you provide are extremely lacking) about solo shamans.


Also great post gersy, thats a nice one. Words of wisdom, especially like the part where you point about importance of building proper groups

Well, we will wait and see what happens, i like my class at the moment, and i'ill wait for future changes, anyway, this is my last forum about this, since i'm tired already, yes you and Gersy have your points, i respect them, and i heavily disagree, that's all. It is such a horrible feeling to grind all the way to sov and be kited like you are nothing because a melee dps don't have a gap closer and rdps have snares, escapes, etc. But it is what it is, thank you for your patience and i apologize for my frustrating post.

[nocturnalguest]

Well, we will wait and see what happens, i like my class at the moment, and i'ill wait for future changes, anyway, this is my last forum about this, since i'm tired already, yes you and Gersy have your points, i respect them, and i heavily disagree, that's all. It is such a horrible feeling to grind all the way to sov and be kited like you are nothing because a melee dps don't have a gap closer and rdps have snares, escapes, etc. But it is what it is, thank you for your patience and i apologize for my frustrating post.

There is 0 need for any apologize, thanks for keeping discussion without calling names and stuff, rare nowdays. Also yes, indeed, lets see what happens, usually forum discussion has close to no effect into internal balance team process but in this thread i believe all points have been made already. However i can see this public discussion as benefiting community as a whole and also helpful for someone new to read up, it has valuable info here.

Good luck and see you on the battlefield o7

[Cullenn]

Well, we will wait and see what happens, i like my class at the moment, and i'ill wait for future changes, anyway, this is my last forum about this, since i'm tired already, yes you and Gersy have your points, i respect them, and i heavily disagree, that's all. It is such a horrible feeling to grind all the way to sov and be kited like you are nothing because a melee dps don't have a gap closer and rdps have snares, escapes, etc. But it is what it is, thank you for your patience and i apologize for my frustrating post.

There is 0 need for any apologize, thanks for keeping discussion without calling names and stuff, rare nowdays. Also yes, indeed, lets see what happens, usually forum discussion has close to no effect into internal balance team process but in this thread i believe all points have been made already. However i can see this public discussion as benefiting community as a whole and also helpful for someone new to read up, it has valuable info here.

Good luck and see you on the battlefield o7

Thank you man, good luck to you as well, let's see if devs change something in other classes in rdps patch.

[Kyouaku]

Hahaha, why so salty? Seriously, the hell im reading lol, is it some reading comphension of your or what? Where you see "lies"?

It's like you are monologue-ing to yourself and hoping noone has actually read what I said and just take your word for it lol.


As I quoted you saying in my reply you mention, you say "Its still your pug issue. You say DPS DoK is lacking damage but then i provide an evidence that spec works in organised environment you completely backdown and fall into all this pug thingy."

Which is a complete lie, I have consistently said it was sub optimal in group play, but you strawmwn me with that. I have also shown why your evidence is...stupid...lol Using a group that has played together vrs years vrs pugs does not contradict anything I have said, and actually supports what I said in 48 lol.

And you do it again with this post, where you once again ignore what I say(Like it #48) and start acting like I said DoK's damage is so low thatit can not have success if carried by it's team, but I have....

.....never said that....

.....and on the contrary, have agreed with that but said other DPS are far better and the DoK needs some help for the reasons I said lol(As I said in 48 explicitly). And you just keep running with that lie. Me talking about how it's kill pressure(Mobility is part of that) is low compared to other dps or other DPS do a more damage, or how I think other DPS are just better is not evidence that supports your claim . It's from a lot of experience. I have also given thoughts specific to ranked as well

As I have always said, and I was always clear on this:

In SCs(Or RvR too*), a ranged DPS, or a DPS with good means to get on target, or other utility like a pull, is ffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more useful then a slow one that can be easily managed by a tank lol(And ****, even other DPS can easily counterplay it). It used to have the awesome devour essence to counter this, and utility to make it super worth, but with a lot of it being removed but the bad mobility remaining leaves it in a bad spot.



I know why do you act like this lol, do you?

[nocturnalguest]

Woaaah man, pfff i feel like some midschool talks

Like wut?! Why would i hope someone take my words andsame time cite your exact posts so everyone can just see for themselves.

You just go in, drop some stuff discord style and be happy as if you indeed gave some unique info /shrug

Also no offense but doesn't look like logic is your best competence. Demagogue style connecting a phrase about pug which is a referance for a quote you say dividing 6v6 scene and others where you clearly point yourself too using a word "us" into completely other part of discussion about "dok is suboptimal in group" /shrug

I dunno, talk is open i think everyone can figure for themselves lol.

Oh and obviously you know me much better than myself and can explain my behaviour with some conspiracy theories lmao. Cmon, kindergarten levels, can do some much better im sure

However, a serious note. That 6v6 match is valid and fine evidence. It doesn't matter that other team is pug as we dont argue around who won, which comp is stronger etc. It just shows that in a one-sided match choppa done lesser kill dmg and overall dmg with furious specced. If dok would be so suboptimal such number wouldn't be possible.

And for a note you didn't anyhow address yourself anything i said so whole banter is literally based on nothing. Boring

[Bozzax]

My .2$ is that it would be stupidity to add charge to doc or wp

Honestly there are several classes that need attention mele wp/dok are not at the top of my list.

[rychu097]

Top much reading...
1) no gap closer - agree that wp/ dok lack something like this

2) why wp doesnt have covenant slow as dok?

3) dont know if U mentioned that wp/dok need to use 2 abilties to make slow to be somehow useful instead od garbage 3 sec.....

U are kited for hours and when finally have chance to hit u need to use two abilties to slow xDD

[kleinbuchstabe]

homogenization of design between classes has proven to be extremely bad when implemented in other mmos because it starts to dismantle the carefully woven fabrics i just described. eventually your class choice ends up becoming more of an aesthetic choice and less about the class' identity as it loses all of its uniqueness and instrumental systems like mix and matching strengths and weaknesses dies out which dampens genre elements and leads to community erosion and gameplay degradation. ripple effects must always be taken in to account else we get to the point we are at today due to things like unified currency or end up like modern wow where every class feels and plays the same and has the same capabilities because they wanted to satisfy everyone and threw away all the original soul and uniqueness of the game to accomplish it.

Well, funny that you mention this... Isnt it the dok/wp who suffered exactly this, more than any other class? Because everything you list up here to prove your point, is discribinng 100% what allready happend to this class and made it bad. So your wannabe wisdom argumentation is nothing but a boomerang, because your "warning" what should not happen, allready happend years ago. I dont know if you are realy playing only since 3 years like your account says. If yes, then obviously you just dont know what you are talking about. I will give you a small tutoring.

If one class lost its identity and became nothing more than an aesthetic choice, then its DPS dok/wp. Why? Because his identity was, to be a melee dps healer / supporter class, wich did damage and supportive heal at the same time. This role was cuted completely, when they implemented a shield path. Shields didnt exist in AoR and also didnt in the begining of RoR. So what they did is, they took everything what made him unique out of the dualwield, and pressed it in their new frankenstein shield path. No Aoe heal life tap anymore. No spirit damage, Devour Essence aura from 9 targets, to 6, to 4, no heal debuff on crit, and the list goes on and on. So now there is a shiled build with all the melee healer things, and a dual wield build wich completely lost its identitiy. Then they tried to homogenize it, made it more similar to other melee dps. Actualy they gave him a charge ability the beginning, what was at least consequent. But they were not done with it, they doctored around more and more (because it was a mess) until the point we have now, with this drowning in blood mechanic... This is not what dps dok was about. Hes drowning in ****, because he lost his identity on dual wield completely, and even the things left, got nerfed more and more, until more or less nothing is left from the old path. Instead they gave him things like armor debuff, wich he just didnt need before, because of spirit damage. So, IF you try to homogenize a class from his original identity to "just another mdps", than do it right, and give him all the necessary tools like a charge. All this gibberish about "he has other unique abilieties instead"... well, he HAD. And it WAS jsutified. But they all got nerfed or cutted out of dw path. So asking for a gap closer, as a consequence of homogenization, to make him at least playable i every game content, is not asked too much.

So freshman, take your text wall of pathos, bring it to your "top players" and keep on brownnosing.
You want to hear an oppinion of a player "who have demonstrable experience in all facets of the game such as incredibly high SC winrates over thousands of matches, high city winrate over many dozens of matches, all classes/archetypes in multiple roles bis, etc." ??
Here i am. My winrate in all these categories was allready high before this joke of a killboard and ranked SC even existed, that people like you use as a benchmark. 90% of Scenarios i join, i finish as the top scorer of my archetype. I played this class on live server as on of my main chars. I know 100% what im talking about when it comes to dps dok, and I dont need to rely on any of your "top players" to build my own oppinion about it. I tell you, this class is not even a shadow of what it was, or what it used to be. So to bully people that they have a skill issue and should learn to play, only because they promote the proposal of a gap closer, is an impertinence. And i dont accept a "learn to play" from a forum bigmouth hero like you, whos telling people his arrogant "learn to play" in every second thread.

[Farrul]

Melee classes/spec without some sort of tool to close the gap is a baseline flawed design ( in any game).

Although one could argue Dok has it, through covenant of celerity which is a very powerful group speed buff, but kinda useless for the personal needs of the DoK in small scale. However the WP is just sad in this regard.

So looking at the WP( ill let other argue for dok) the kind of gap closer that was balanced for it, was the one it already had but got removed.

The 20% Buff on Judgement. Doesn't need full fledged Charge. ( e.g. it can be reintroduced and restricted to 2-hand only for balance reasons)

There is a second flaw in the design of the WP/DoK regarding this issue, the fact that Flee( 30% buff) drains all Righteous Fury/DoK resource which further punish their melee specs into a sitting duck playstyle, Every single other melee class, mdps, tanks, hybrid melee specs, have that 30% Speed buff since they shrug AP potions + Flee for effensive gap closing. This is very unfair.

[noronn]

homogenization of design between classes has proven to be extremely bad when implemented in other mmos because it starts to dismantle the carefully woven fabrics i just described. eventually your class choice ends up becoming more of an aesthetic choice and less about the class' identity as it loses all of its uniqueness and instrumental systems like mix and matching strengths and weaknesses dies out which dampens genre elements and leads to community erosion and gameplay degradation. ripple effects must always be taken in to account else we get to the point we are at today due to things like unified currency or end up like modern wow where every class feels and plays the same and has the same capabilities because they wanted to satisfy everyone and threw away all the original soul and uniqueness of the game to accomplish it.

Well, funny that you mention this... Isnt it the dok/wp who suffered exactly this, more than any other class? Because everything you list up here to prove your point, is discribinng 100% what allready happend to this class and made it bad. So your wannabe wisdom argumentation is nothing but a boomerang, because your "warning" what should not happen, allready happend years ago. I dont know if you are realy playing only since 3 years like your account says. If yes, then obviously you just dont know what you are talking about. I will give you a small tutoring.

If one class lost its identity and became nothing more than an aesthetic choice, then its DPS dok/wp. Why? Because his identity was, to be a melee dps healer / supporter class, wich did damage and supportive heal at the same time. This role was cuted completely, when they implemented a shield path. Shields didnt exist in AoR and also didnt in the begining of RoR. So what they did is, they took everything what made him unique out of the dualwield, and pressed it in their new frankenstein shield path. No Aoe heal life tap anymore. No spirit damage, Devour Essence aura from 9 targets, to 6, to 4, no heal debuff on crit, and the list goes on and on. So now there is a shiled build with all the melee healer things, and a dual wield build wich completely lost its identitiy. Then they tried to homogenize it, made it more similar to other melee dps. Actualy they gave him a charge ability the beginning, what was at least consequent. But they were not done with it, they doctored around more and more (because it was a mess) until the point we have now, with this drowning in blood mechanic... This is not what dps dok was about. Hes drowning in ****, because he lost his identity on dual wield completely, and even the things left, got nerfed more and more, until more or less nothing is left from the old path. Instead they gave him things like armor debuff, wich he just didnt need before, because of spirit damage. So, IF you try to homogenize a class from his original identity to "just another mdps", than do it right, and give him all the necessary tools like a charge. All this gibberish about "he has other unique abilieties instead"... well, he HAD. And it WAS jsutified. But they all got nerfed or cutted out of dw path. So asking for a gap closer, as a consequence of homogenization, to make him at least playable i every game content, is not asked too much.

So freshman, take your text wall of pathos, bring it to your "top players" and keep on brownnosing.
You want to hear an oppinion of a player "who have demonstrable experience in all facets of the game such as incredibly high SC winrates over thousands of matches, high city winrate over many dozens of matches, all classes/archetypes in multiple roles bis, etc." ??
Here i am. My winrate in all these categories was allready high before this joke of a killboard and ranked SC even existed, that people like you use as a benchmark. 90% of Scenarios i join, i finish as the top scorer of my archetype. I played this class on live server as on of my main chars. I know 100% what im talking about when it comes to dps dok, and I dont need to rely on any of your "top players" to build my own oppinion about it. I tell you, this class is not even a shadow of what it was, or what it used to be. So to bully people that they have a skill issue and should learn to play, only because they promote the proposal of a gap closer, is an impertinence. And i dont accept a "learn to play" from a forum bigmouth hero like you, whos telling people his arrogant "learn to play" in every second thread.

Now I'm intrigued. Who are you? Give me some names.