[Sorc] : Rework ?

[Aluviya]

Class that can explode people from 100 ft on 11 CD rotation never should have a chance to survive when focused in smallscale.

In smallscale, Sorc won't kill much if no HD on the team
On the contrary, dps am can kill with few dots, have channel + puddles snare, aoe punt, HD...
All of this while healing anyone, instead of hurting themselves (and rez!)
Dps RP also has lot of CC, slow on a dot tactic, -50% dmg etc...
If we forget dps healers, BW seem a lil' better than sorc (HD/aoe Resis debuff/Stun/Snare Chan/Punt)
Sorc has a cool punt tactic but it's really hazardous. Also a great slow bonus, on sov... so gotta wait rr78
Then both are in the same boat, n°1 dps to focus (since slayer and choppa can regen and get guard)
They have to survive 7s invincibles rogues, constantly run away from grab, take huge dmg from SH / Engi...
All while damaging themselves... It's not about surviving focus, they die anytime heal is sleepy/busy/away
Imo changes could be done for both BW and Sorc, to make them more independent
They would remain squishy, just need some CC / Mobility / Long CD prot
What I proposed are just minor boosts, mainly to improve gameplay, a lot more could be done

This game is not really about whether a single class performs well in one isolated situation. I think the RDPS patch needs to settle for a while and should be evaluated together with the current state of DPS healers before we immediately start adding further buffs or new tools.

I also don’t think comparing BW and Sorc purely by listing what each class brings is particularly useful. You could make just as long a list of reasons why BW is currently struggling. Even some of the tools that sound strong on paper come with significant drawbacks: the KD is only 2 seconds at the relevant range, using it removes your resistance debuff, certain specs lock you out of Fireball Barrage, and so on. At the same time, classes such as Squig Herder can currently be extremely strong counters.

That said, neither Sorc nor BW were ever really designed around being independent small-scale classes. Both are highly group-dependent and should primarily be judged by whether they can still function as strong MA DPS within a properly built and coordinated group — and I would argue that they still can.

There were certainly points where something like DPS Shaman could arguably have been the better choice, simply because it brought things such as single and AoE detaunt and had a much less obvious indicator of when its burst rotation was coming. But to me that does not necessarily mean Sorc or BW themselves needed changes.

In fact, I think neither Sorc nor BW really needed many direct changes so far. In several cases, the bigger issue was that other classes or mechanics around them needed to be adjusted instead.

That is why I would be careful with giving them more self-sufficiency just because they struggle when isolated or focused. If the actual problem is that they cannot perform their intended role even with proper guard, healing and group support, then that is something worth addressing. But that is a different problem from simply making them more independent.

Especially after a fairly substantial RDPS patch, I would rather see how the current balance develops — including the interaction with DPS healers — before adding another layer of class changes.

[Bozzax]

The problem is that some classes were never “designed” as warband classes, yet balance changes have strengthened their warband specs without reducing their effectiveness elsewhere.

Utility and damage are also being handed out left and right, almost like free candy. All these balancing principles sound good, but they are not being applied consistently across classes.

[Demonito]

Spoiler:

Class that can explode people from 100 ft on 11 CD rotation never should have a chance to survive when focused in smallscale.

In smallscale, Sorc won't kill much if no HD on the team
On the contrary, dps am can kill with few dots, have channel + puddles snare, aoe punt, HD...
All of this while healing anyone, instead of hurting themselves (and rez!)
Dps RP also has lot of CC, slow on a dot tactic, -50% dmg etc...
If we forget dps healers, BW seem a lil' better than sorc (HD/aoe Resis debuff/Stun/Snare Chan/Punt)
Sorc has a cool punt tactic but it's really hazardous. Also a great slow bonus, on sov... so gotta wait rr78
Then both are in the same boat, n°1 dps to focus (since slayer and choppa can regen and get guard)
They have to survive 7s invincibles rogues, constantly run away from grab, take huge dmg from SH / Engi...
All while damaging themselves... It's not about surviving focus, they die anytime heal is sleepy/busy/away
Imo changes could be done for both BW and Sorc, to make them more independent
They would remain squishy, just need some CC / Mobility / Long CD prot
What I proposed are just minor boosts, mainly to improve gameplay, a lot more could be done

This game is not really about whether a single class performs well in one isolated situation. I think the RDPS patch needs to settle for a while and should be evaluated together with the current state of DPS healers before we immediately start adding further buffs or new tools.

I also don’t think comparing BW and Sorc purely by listing what each class brings is particularly useful. You could make just as long a list of reasons why BW is currently struggling. Even some of the tools that sound strong on paper come with significant drawbacks: the KD is only 2 seconds at the relevant range, using it removes your resistance debuff, certain specs lock you out of Fireball Barrage, and so on. At the same time, classes such as Squig Herder can currently be extremely strong counters.

That said, neither Sorc nor BW were ever really designed around being independent small-scale classes. Both are highly group-dependent and should primarily be judged by whether they can still function as strong MA DPS within a properly built and coordinated group — and I would argue that they still can.

There were certainly points where something like DPS Shaman could arguably have been the better choice, simply because it brought things such as single and AoE detaunt and had a much less obvious indicator of when its burst rotation was coming. But to me that does not necessarily mean Sorc or BW themselves needed changes.

In fact, I think neither Sorc nor BW really needed many direct changes so far. In several cases, the bigger issue was that other classes or mechanics around them needed to be adjusted instead.

That is why I would be careful with giving them more self-sufficiency just because they struggle when isolated or focused. If the actual problem is that they cannot perform their intended role even with proper guard, healing and group support, then that is something worth addressing. But that is a different problem from simply making them more independent.

Especially after a fairly substantial RDPS patch, I would rather see how the current balance develops — including the interaction with DPS healers — before adding another layer of class changes.

I agree with almost everything you said, that's why I proposed only few buffs
None of them would significantly change the class, simply add a smoother gameplay
Sorc works great in wb/premade, where you can have HD and team up with any magus for aoe resis debuff
Only an aoe detaunt could be nice there, for sorc/bw crazy enough to go melee
Then giving more chances of survival when no heal around would be welcomed, as it happens a lot in SC

Dps healers are for sure the most unbalanced right now and therefore n°1 prio in rework
I did say BW are in the same boat as sorc, struggling quite as much for survival
The stun is mostly a tool to escape and destro pets make it difficult indeed
(Even that new screamers swarm hurt a lot)
I only disagree with no HD at all, that's where sorc isn't filling it's intended dps role
Also, even with a tank switching guard faster than light and good healers, sorc hardly survive focus
On the contrary, other rdps have nice tools to escape/survive
Magus ST burst is now stronger than sorc and Squigs have a good one + HD spam
Focusing only on destro Rdps, I don't see any reason to play sorc in SC over those two

There's also a huge diff between playing a skilled rr80 sorc and leveling up
Sorc in T1 / T2 is probably the worst experience for new players

Mdps got better tools too (we Pounce / magic immunity / more regen for mdps / better wl grab/stun ect...)
Sorc and BW didn't recieve upgrates accordingly
It's like all classes are in wow wotlk now, while sorc remained vanilla
Some spells are also outdated in pvp (doombolt / arctic blast / surging pain...)
Sorc lacks a shiny polish, especially for low pop SC

[gisborne]

As an order healer I didn't even notice there was a patch for Sorc. As weak and non-threatening as ever.

[ElectricRinku]

Yeah before you are full bis as a sorc you are basically useless and even when full bis you can try do gimmicky one shots on braindead/afk solos or you can do AoE dmg in a zerg and that's pretty much the only 2 things the class can do.

In League of Legends they have a meme about power creep where someone will point out all the shiny new toys new characters get and then someone else will say " but Blitzcrank slows himself with E!" and the state of Sorc is basically the RoR version of that.

[Lion1986]

As an order healer I didn't even notice there was a patch for Sorc. As weak and non-threatening as ever.

With my healer main i detaunt and facetank her. They hit like wet noodles and kill themselves each tume they cast. A NPC is more threatening honestly

[Tosunpasa]

These classed designed and focused for burst/high dmg.If you remove it just a dummy squishy class left with staff like oldmen

[ElectricRinku]

Yeah honestly as a sorc you literally kill yourself just to do the same or less damage than another dps.

You can't even check your damage on a dummy in town without killing yourself. Sometimes I can't even kill the dummy all the way cause I get to like 10% hp and have to wait to regen back up just to continue testing stuff on a dummy.

Like I'm sorry but making a class dmg/kill itself to deal same/avg damage and then not giving it a way to mitigate this backlash dmg on itself is just simply really bad class design and always has been.

[Lion1986]

Yeah honestly as a sorc you literally kill yourself just to do the same or less damage than another dps.

You can't even check your damage on a dummy in town without killing yourself. Sometimes I can't even kill the dummy all the way cause I get to like 10% hp and have to wait to regen back up just to continue testing stuff on a dummy.

Like I'm sorry but making a class dmg/kill itself to deal same/avg damage and then not giving it a way to mitigate this backlash dmg on itself is just simply really bad class design and always has been.

A class that hurts itself to deal damage could be a very interesting concept if implemented correctly, but not the way they've done it in Warhammer Online.

they could redesign calss mechanic that , instead of selfg damage, could self drain AP like i proposed or reduce the self inflicted damage, but guess will never happen. I am personally happy because they are free kills in scenarios lol

[ElectricRinku]

Yeah... a class shining when being supported by a team is awesome and waht every dps gets to enjoy not unique to sorc.

But a class REQUIRING a team supporting them to function?

Yeah that's bad class design.