Patch Notes 31/1/2017

[peterthepan3]

There are two major concerns i see with the AoE changes.

1st is the possibility of inciting a sort of animosity between premades and pugs that are trying to assist premade push/use premade as shield to work off. So a friendly pug wanders into radius of the aoe driving the dmg down. In that premade which may or may have not spent considerable effort to position themselves to avoid just that, get annoyed. I have seen and experienced something similar in GW2, where all that was needed to really screw you over in any sort of fight, was to have 1 pug killed by enemy [the blasted rally system in all its glory]. It lead organized group to straight up telling anyone not in guild to kindly "f*** off" or risk entire pool of down stated enemies to be back on their feet. it creates toxic and unpleasant atmosphere and hinders the promotion of teamwork inside of one realm.

If the actual calibre of PvP increases, then toxicity is a minor issue. If anything, it would promote people playing in groups, lest they - as you said - mess up an opportune moment that a premade/wb had been setting up. Most rational humans would look and say 'oh, sorry! I didn't know that', and learn from the mistakes. Ofc I'm not condoning any toxicity, but if some people don't learn and just carry on (deliberately) being sheepish, then they should get some stick if they're jeopardising others' strategies/etc

[Zanilos]

Anti-zerg ftw. Looks promising. Essentially limiting the potency of aoe spambots who are huddled together, if I'm understanding it correctly? Gj.

OOOOORRRRRRRR.......

you zerg with SW spamming in line aoe. Totally forgot the name of it.

OOOORRRRRRR even better, Flame Breath only WBs. Just use conals and not pbaoe and youre golden.
R.I.P mara aoe buffs.

For some reason (this is'nt pointed at pan) people think that the WBs will not use the same tools as the small groups who want to kill them.

[peterthepan3]

And if the above were to prove equally OP/hurr, then I am sure it would warrant similar treatment. Simply a case of testing these things out now so as to ensure aoe spam (in whatever guise), with minimal risk for maximum reward, isn't godmode.

Also warbands of shadow warriors spamming aoe would be a blessing in disguise for those High Elf RP guilds, anyway

[Zanilos]

And if the above proves to be equally monotonous and hurrdurr mode, then I am sure it would warrant similar treatment. Simply a case of testing these things out now so as to ensure aoe spam (in whatever guise), with minimal risk for maximum reward, isn't godmode.

Also warbands of shadow warriors spamming aoe would be a blessing in disguise for those High Elf RP guilds, anyway

Who?

Almost all the RvR issues with zerging are community issues. When guilds and alliances post videos where they have over 1 wb, staff should pull them to one side. Ask them to sort their **** out. Politely.

Just because you spent a lot of time working on a patch does not automatically mean it is a good patch.

[altharion1]

Doesn't really feel any different.

Back on live premades were able to survive/not be steam rolled by warbands because of 1 thing.. Odjira. Slap a 30% snare to groups of 20+ players within 70ft of each other, then premades would have the mobility to out maneuver large blobs.

[BreezeKicker]

There are two major concerns i see with the AoE changes.

1st is the possibility of inciting a sort of animosity between premades and pugs that are trying to assist premade push/use premade as shield to work off. So a friendly pug wanders into radius of the aoe driving the dmg down. In that premade which may or may have not spent considerable effort to position themselves to avoid just that, get annoyed. I have seen and experienced something similar in GW2, where all that was needed to really screw you over in any sort of fight, was to have 1 pug killed by enemy [the blasted rally system in all its glory]. It lead organized group to straight up telling anyone not in guild to kindly "f*** off" or risk entire pool of down stated enemies to be back on their feet. it creates toxic and unpleasant atmosphere and hinders the promotion of teamwork inside of one realm.

If the actual calibre of PvP increases, then toxicity is a minor issue. If anything, it would promote people playing in groups, lest they - as you said - mess up an opportune moment that a premade/wb had been setting up. Most rational humans would look and say 'oh, sorry! I didn't know that', and learn from the mistakes. Ofc I'm not condoning any toxicity, but if some people don't learn and just carry on (deliberately) being sheepish, then they should get some stick if they're jeopardising others' strategies/etc

I m all for getting more people in proper team play, the issue is more about the organized groups getting more and more annoyed by the conduct of the minority which trives or simply doesn't care at all that they are hindering other people efforts, to the point that they consider to much of a hassle to properly enjoy their game sessions. The overall experience with pugs pretty much handing the victory to our enemies was one of the prime reason we decided to end our time in GW2 as a guild.

And you cannot really punish them in meaningful way, after all do we really want to ban people which simply play bad or risk tons of alleged "but muh premade got screwed by this and that group of people" in the most extreme options?

Yes it may not come to this in the end but that is why it is my concerns and not an actual issues, need more testing to actually confirm.

[peterthepan3]

I agree very strongly with you, Zani, and would go one step further and suggest that the vast majority of issues, in general, are community issues: lack of competitive fights, complaints from pug perspective, people following the route of least resistance, people not using their class mechanics, etc.

Ideally, as you said, guilds/alliances that rely on zerging would be told not to. However, it is evident that people will still choose to play ez mode, and will not change their playstyle (as is evident in some of the comments posted here from peoples of a certain guild/alliance, who now face the prospect of having to do just that), which necessitates such changes as simply leading them to water has not proven to be enough; people zerg because they like easy victories, and will not change their playstyle - unless forced to do so.

Sad, really.

@Althi: initially I thought that idea would be unfair on people who simply want to play in warbands (as per game's design), until I saw the 70ft part. Essentially, then, it would only penalise warbands who were fighting in the same area/blobbing?

[Azarael]

I'm sorry, but ordering people not to zerg is ridiculous. You might as well tell people not to run Knights as a main tank. There's a reason people do it, and as long as it works for them, they'll continue to do it.

[dur3al]

Doesn't really feel any different.

Back on live premades were able to survive/not be steam rolled by warbands because of 1 thing.. Odjira. Slap a 30% snare to groups of 20+ players within 70ft of each other, then premades would have the mobility to out maneuver large blobs.

@Althi: initially I thought that idea would be unfair on people who simply want to play in warbands (as per game's design), until I saw the 70ft part. Essentially, then, it would only penalise warbands who were fighting in the same area/blobbing?

Yes, Odjira + QE was what made it possible for small groups to survive and hit-and-run as I explained previously in this thread.

A snare as Althi suggested won't work because a) Its creating a debuff that players don't really have any control over.. imagine pugs running your way and you'll just tell them to go other way? b) Most maps force you to "funnel" up, not to mention keeps themselves... imagine pushing a keep with literally every attacking force at a snare...

The easier solution... is just make QE work (Odjira perhaps not since that's from lotd). I think I've been advocating for QE for months now in here due how necessary it is for small group roaming and especially to make melees more viable in oRvR, and how not having QE makes rDps be so much more viable over mDps in oRvR - which helps over-saturate the population of range dps all across the board, scenarios included too. I guess finally people are seeing it now - lets hope.

QE won't create any unbalance simply because its available for everyone at the cost of renown points, but it works "on being hit" basis, this gives a small edge in oRvR to small groups for kiting and disengaging, since they will most likely be being hit from all sides (especially against AoE) and by many more people (fighting outnumbered), so even if the blob also uses QE+Odjira, they would require everyone of the blob to be taking damage in order to push at the same speed, and this simply won't happen because the small group is not able to hit everyone (let alone make the buff proc for everyone). This opens room for hit-and-run tactics as well as kiting for small groups in oRvR that does not resolve around posterns/warcamps etc.

[Dabbart]

Ok, 14 pages and I just got off work, I aint reading all of that...

Picked a bit, and I see a common theory that this will be a major issue for Premades... Why? Wont this greatly incentivise ST builds and assisting? Swap to a bomb spec if you have a bunch of AAO, and watch as they melt, while having all of their damage decreased vs. you. I fail to see any negative for premades...

I see this change as a boon to "competitive" teams. It also follows the lines of Siege Damage(would be cool to have a Damage Reduction on Oil based on friendlies too btw), which I always appreciate. Standardizing systems as best as possible is always a boon in my eyes. It makes things far easier to understand/explain to newbies/returning players/people who don't read the forums...

+anything to decentivise(is that a word?) zerging is good.