Overarching balance changes

[bloodi]

What if group cleanse was made a core healer archetype tactic?

I think its faster to just remove magus/engineer from the game if we are going for that route.

Also, i cant talk about the Rp one but the Am one is worth using on certain situations and the tactic is usually a must. It even stacks its pitiful hot with itself!

[Penril]

What if group cleanse was made a core healer archetype tactic?

Just wondering if people think the problem is group cleanse as an idea, or if the problem is tied to what type of debuffs are being removed etc...

I think the problem is what type of debuffs are being removed. However, changing those would create a complete mess (say, WP now cleanses Ailment and Curse instead of Hex). Incredibly hard to balance, and the amount of QQ would be epic.

It would be much easier to change the damage of Magus (Hex) to Ailment, and Engie (Hex) to Curse. Then you would just need to grab a Ailment class from destro and change it to Hex (i would go with Mara), and a Curse class on Order and change it to Hex as well (KotBS).

This makes life of Engi/Magus a little bit easier, and is a tiny nerf to Mara/KotBs as well.

[tomato]

The RP died before he could cast Rune of Regeneration on himself. So he had no chance of getting the armor proc. He also died before he could get a Blessing of Grungni proc on himself. So those tactics were no help in that situation.

And that was my point. To get the tankiness, the RP has to give up two tactic slots, only one of which is guaranteed to help when needed. And two tactic slots on armor means the RP has to give up one or two tactics that would have improved healing. The WP doesn't have to make that sacrifice to get their armor.

PS. I watched quite a few of the CCM videos and it was also interesting to note that the WP in CCM out-healed the RP by between 30 and 90% in every scen where the scoreboard was shown. So I don't think it could be argued that WP's healing suffered in comparison to the RP. Of course, the rP brings some useful group buffs that the WP can't provide and their cleansing is a little different. But it's hard to see why a backline WP should have all that extra armor when compared to the cloth healers.

So you're basing you whole wp tankier than rp on the ccm stuff?
That sounds solid.

The rp dying before getting anything off means most of the time:
He runs the wrong build.
He had bad positioning.

If you would watch some of our 6vs6 against red guard, you can see that we have more problems killing the rp than the wp.
Which totally proves rp tankier wp. (sarcasm)

Shitty anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

As I said, get some experience before making assumptions.

[peterthepan3]

Agree with bloodi

[Jaycub]

What about certain tactics in the game such as the BW's Smoldering Embers, and Magus's endless pandemonium which seem to function at least partially as anti cleanse measures, but fall short by being RNG based or effecting to little.

DoT based specs on classes do suffer a lot from cleanse but I don't think changes to cleanse will necessarily put them in a good spot, maybe they just need proper countermeasures to deal with them/

[bloodi]

If they were not chance based, BW has space in tactics to run it, i dont think the sorc does.

But still, i hate the design of it, if its 100%, it makes cleansing against BW worthless, furthermore, it encourages you to put BB first so it gets cleansed and then reapplied, making cleanse even worse.

If its chance based, its a binary outcome, sometimes is great, others is trash.

So i dont like the design of such things at all.

[peterthepan3]

Requires a tactic slot when the class is already spoilt for choice :/

Affliction warlock 3.3.5: Unstable Affliction. Now that is how you do anti -cleanse dots (upon being cleansed, the cleanser would take a huge bit of damage and get silenced)

[Penril]

Or Choppa or BG or Sorc. WP/Dok always excel in fights beyond 6v6. Once Marauders HD will be changed to outgoing we will see Choppa again in the "meta" group.

BG and Sorc are not part of the current Destro meta. I am talking strictly about 6v6. You are right on Choppa though, but his strong debuffs are ST so group cleanse doesn't really make a difference against them (assuming Chosen/Choppa/Mara/BO group).

Double WP is weaker than RP + WP. AM + WP or AM + WP is viable in kite groups. AM + RP is subpar because you lack fast group healing. It's also weaker when being outnumbered.

I agree that double WP is weaker than WP+RP. I was just pointing out that several people like to run WP x2 (which is true).

Yes, AM is viable in kite groups but cleanse has nothing to do with it. They are not picking an AM because he can cleanse something the WP can't.

AM + RP is subpar because you lack fast group healing (you said it yourself). Not necessarily because of the group cleanse.

I know group cleanse can be stupidly strong in RvR and SCs. That is completely true. I guess my point is that i just don't consider it OP when fighting the destro meta. Similar to a Dok fighting against KotBS/IB/WL/XXXXX; he can only really cleanse one guy (XXXXX).

[bloodi]

Unstable affliction idea was great but you have to think about what dispells were in wow.

Dispells had no cd, they could just make you unable to do anything at all by just dispelling your target, furthermore, it dispelled two effects, so he could heal + dispell using 2 gcds and it would counter your 2 gcds.

I dont even know how dispell works now in wow, i never played anything past Wotlk but UA was the child of some very **** up systems around how dispell worked in wow.

I mean, it hitted for what, 8k on a capped resilience healer and it came along with a 5 seconds silence? I remember killing stupid healers trying to get into Naxx by just using corruption + ua which they dispelled and by the magic of not having resilience they ate a 15k burst.

[Jaycub]

Problem with adding CC effects to abilities is the current implementation of CC immunities would mean more often than not the downside to cleansing something like unstable affliction would either be "wasted" on a target and give them free immunity, or that target would already have immunity and nothing would happen.

There are plenty of abilities in the game that try and punish healers by shocking them with direct damage ticks whenver they use a direct heal, but the amount of damage is laughable, and when the healer isn't the focus it is totally useless.

Maybe something like "if this ability is cleansed the healer will receive a 50% outgoing healdebuff for 5 seconds" or something a long those lines.