Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

[Telen]

I like the idea of hardcaps for all stats but leaving skills bonuses add above that level. So u got hardcap by stacking pure stats and additional buffs from skills.
Also from my pov devs should chose disrupt rule for dots to be:
1. Only on apllication
2. Only on damage ticks
But not both of them, it makes dot based stuff even more lackluster

The idea seemed to be that reacting to running dots was the compromise someone had to make to remove cw (though I suspect there is still a cw item out there as Ive seen quite a few people cleanse all dots a few times still). Problem with the disrupt on ticks is many dots come with debuffs attached that need avoidance checks. So you have checks on hit and tick. So double the avoidance a dd has to take. I get the idea but its pretty clear why Mythic chose the first as you have to check debuffs and cleanse is the counter to running dots, moving to disrupt to tick would make avoidance useless vs debuff and would need cleanse seriously toned down or removed as it does the same job.

[roadkillrobin]

Whats needed to be added is that casters are supose to be good against other casters hence their primary stats for healers and secondary for dps casters is willpower.

However ranged weapon dps classes and more specificly the burst damange paths, Rifleman/Scout/Big Shootin are straight up designed primary to take out casters.

Agony/Havoc/Incineration are designed to take out low toughness higher armor classes aka mdps.

Merging dodge and disrupt to one stat kinda neglects this design.

[Telen]

Spoiler:

Whats needed to be added is that casters are supose to be good against other casters hence their primary stats for healers and secondary for dps casters is willpower.

However ranged weapon dps classes and more specificly the burst damange paths, Rifleman/Scout/Big Shootin are straight up designed primary to take out casters.

Agony/Havoc/Incineration are designed to take out low toughness higher armor classes aka mdps.

Merging dodge and disrupt to one stat kinda neglects this design.

Casters seemed to be meant to be the counter to tanks, particularly 2h with the lack of block, originally block being cheaper, dodge and disrupt split and more expensive and the resist cap. With the no brainer pick with dodge and disrupt merged and much cheaper compared to block its not the threat to tanks it used to be.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

Whats needed to be added is that casters are supose to be good against other casters hence their primary stats for healers and secondary for dps casters is willpower.

However ranged weapon dps classes and more specificly the burst damange paths, Rifleman/Scout/Big Shootin are straight up designed primary to take out casters.

Agony/Havoc/Incineration are designed to take out low toughness higher armor classes aka mdps.

Merging dodge and disrupt to one stat kinda neglects this design.

Casters seemed to be meant to be the counter to tanks, particularly 2h with the lack of block, originally block being cheaper, dodge and disrupt split and more expensive and the resist cap. With the no brainer pick with dodge and disrupt merged and much cheaper compared to block its not the threat to tanks it used to be.

The Dot paths are designed to take out enemies with higher toughness. Doombolt gets heavliy shafted by toughness while WoP goes almoast untouched.

[Egoish]

I read all of it but i just want to chime in with a couple of points, applying a bandaid 10% strikethrough to all magic classes seems like an ineligent solution.

I disrupt is overperforming fixing the core issue would be preferable, it feels lke the issue is easy access and obvious build choice into deft defender. I though there was an RA rework in the pipeline anyway?

Adding strikethrough to willpower seems like a viable option, other than the fact it further iteracts with the dps zealot/rp harbinger mechanic which to be honest .needs reviewing anyway.

I'd like to see a single resist check for dots on application as it increases the need for cleansing and might mitigate some of the issues across all classes then after testing could be followed by more targetted changes.

[Reesh]

I'd like to state one thing - flashfire + burn through doesn't kill people.
You can access it once per 6 seconds if lucky, then you're just better with casting manually 3s fireballs. Will that kill a target? I don't think so.
It's a gimmick, that honestly, can be removed.

Actually, I've stopped running with that combo, as I was missing too much of dps, which was needed to kill the target that's being babysitted by a competent healer.

I don't want to read that class is in "okay" shape, just because something like this exists.

What kills is the rotation on BW/Sorc case, and Aurandilaz pretty much explained how it works in practice on page 12, which currently, just don't.


I'd also like to state that it isn't just the healer case. Deft defender in it's current iteration is too godly, especially when we look how cheap it is (as it was being stated by multiple of users already).

All the good suggestions I'd think of were also said, like doing a 10% flat out disrupt strike through, or separating disrupt and dodge from deft defender, or tying 15% disrupt strike though to pierce defenses tactic, or increasing the chance of landing an ability on class defining skills.
Everything can be found in this thread. It's now the time to select a few carefully, and playtest it heavily. If that doesn't work, pick another solution, and do another playtest roundabout.

[Gerv]

Hi Tesq,

A magic caster with 1050 intel and no other bonuses only generates 40% strike through, which is not a flat % reduction on your disrupt chance.
Here is the formula:
(((offensiveStat) * 100) / (((caster.EffectiveLevel * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5))
(((1050) * 100) / (((40 * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5))
= 40 This is then added to the end of a contested roll which = WP disrupt+%increase / 100+strike through
There is no 75% cut through.

This is the same for all main stats.

What I showed above is that Willpower is not over performing - at 805 I only generate 21.9% effective disrupt against 1050 magic caster. This is the same for all defensive stats. With one, defiantly 2 more gear sets, you will see the same issue for melee and parry.

For those advocating for an additional 10% strike through - it will not make a significant difference because of the saw the formula works, as I will show again below:

Strike through values are added to the upper contested value, like %bonuses of renown are added to initial WP disrupt calculation. for example if I have a initial disrupt value for say 25% and the team add 10% strike through to the formula it will result in this:

Current formula - no added 10%
Initial disrupt (no %modifiers) / 100 + strike through from main offensive stat + gear strike through
25 / 100 + 40 + 9 = 25 / 149 = 16.7
New formula with 10% blanket strike through
Initial disrupt (no %modifiers) / 100 + strike through from main offensive stat + gear strike through + blanket
25 / 100 + 40 + 9 + 10 = 25 / 159 = 15.7
10% added disrupt strike through resulted in an effect disrupt reduction of 1%

The formula would need to be changed so that strike though directly reduced the initial disrupt rate.
for example
(Initial disrupt) + (%modifiers - %strikethrough) / (100 + IntelStrikethrough%)

An alternative would be to split the renown %modifiers to be either dodge or disrupt - this would make melee/healers vulnerable (even though melee are and I don't believe it is needed as they only reach ~30% disrupt with all %modifiers shown previously) to 1 type of RDPS over the other and create rock - sizzor balance situation.

[scatterthewinds]

I still think this entire conversation is insane and we should be asking the question: "How do we nerf rdps to a position where they do not completely dominate mdps in all situations other than a perfectly setup premade with competent tanks and healers?'"

[orillah]

If there is already exists setups that counter rdps, then they not need any nerf.

[szejoza]

Wait a second here, KOTBS and Chosen already can reduce targets chance to defend against attacks with Staggering Impact and Critical Suppresion tactic by 10%, instead of nerf shouldn't players tell their tanks to test rdps with these debuffs first? Or are this skills so rarely used nobody bothered?
Or this skills work in somewhat different way that I fail to see?

edit: and dont forget about stat steal and willpower debuff