Morals (IV) suggestion

[jojomen]

PPL crying about how overpowerd order is , but all of them didnt care that only Destro side had morale tactics (Chosen,Shaman,Zealot,Black Orc).
So its seems fair (one side with buffs , other with morals) to me in its own way , but still i would prefer to see 2 slots for tactics from "OLD rr system" to be added again.
The more different variation of the action RPG elements in game ,more iteresting its become to
test it, build something new.

(as if we would have DUAL RR systems, to spend same RR points on tactics -and (parry\block\ect.);
if we had character of 80RR , then 80 points on skill and 80 on tactics - ofc its seems OP ,but i think GMs can balance it as time goes.



P.S.Comon people pls stop asking for balancing Factions, for all of us its clear as day that so-called "MIRRORS" ist mirrors at all, each and every one of classed in WAR(RoR) builded from 3 different aspects (classes mechanic,racial tactics,archetype).
In each pair of "mirror classes" one of them -offensive- (Crits,Damage priority), other one -utility- based (pulls,snare,heals).
Or. -utility- (8) IB Engi KOBTs WH WL BW WP RP
Or. -offensive- (4) AM SW Slayer SM
Des. -utility- (4) Shamy SH CHo BO
Des. -offensive- (8) BG Magus Chosen WE MA Sorc Dok ZE
(one side has more buffs-heals, but in same time overall raw damage of other side is bigger)
We cant balance sides without ruining game.
(And 1st of all we all love this game , for this unique way of game - you can play each of 24 classes and almost never got bored, to be able identify weak and strong sides of enemy in pvp -Undying Joy that can be Provided only by WAR(RoR).

[Tesq]

all used 1 tactic, the most popular ones were 5% damages reduction.

[roadkillrobin]

Pretty sure the moast popular ones was the renown boost ones. People basicly spend all their points into stat upgrades and if they had points over they got any of the renown boost tactics.

[Bozzax]

The difference is is that on live being in a full group gave you 36 morale a second(From videos we managed to find). Allowing for morale 1 to be up in ~10s, m2 in ~20s, m3 in ~50s, and m4 in ~100s

Would be good to compile for multiple vids as many veterans (me including) has claimed "stuff worked like this" that later has been proven utterly wrong.

I'll have a wild guess @ 30/s in full grp from this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU8EKL09i_8

Renown tactics (98.93% sure)
Nemesis - Receive 5% less damage from Kings
King of the Hill - 5% Increased Renown in Skirmish

[grumcajs]

Spoiler:

P.S.Comon people pls stop asking for balancing Factions, for all of us its clear as day that so-called "MIRRORS" ist mirrors at all, each and every one of classed in WAR(RoR) builded from 3 different aspects (classes mechanic,racial tactics,archetype).
In each pair of "mirror classes" one of them -offensive- (Crits,Damage priority), other one -utility- based (pulls,snare,heals).
Or. -utility- (8) IB Engi KOBTs WH WL BW WP RP
Or. -offensive- (4) AM SW Slayer SM
Des. -utility- (4) Shamy SH CHo BO
Des. -offensive- (8) BG Magus Chosen WE MA Sorc Dok ZE
(one side has more buffs-heals, but in same time overall raw damage of other side is bigger)
We cant balance sides without ruining game.
(And 1st of all we all love this game , for this unique way of game - you can play each of 24 classes and almost never got bored, to be able identify weak and strong sides of enemy in pvp -Undying Joy that can be Provided only by WAR(RoR).

whats that utility/off for gods sake?
When some class is dps it isnt utility class

I have tried to undestand your point but to no avail...
for example - WL with one of the highest frontload burst is considered utility while marauder with his debuffs and CC is considered offensive, BO with dps friendly builds is considered utility while chosen is offensive, AM has same dmg as shamy (AM higher sustained against no cleanse, shamy more burst), WH and WE are in terms of burst the most equal (though I think WH with EW have a bit higher burst), slayer and choppas are equal when there is no ID or SL (hell even SL provide more utility than choppa can offer thanks to Chop Fasta has 2 min cd) etc. etc.

You cannot see the balance from classes point of view but from the realm view - in that I agree with you. Though rather than talking about utility and dmg you should talk about things that were mentioned by others - morale gain (destro tank tactic, shamy,zeal), order grp tactics - crit,heal etc. better grp AP management etc. etc. etc.

[jojomen]

whats that utility/off for gods sake?
When some class is dps it isnt utility class

Srsly?, that hard for you to see differences between "mirror" classes? --
okay -allow me explain :
1) if one side got more damage oriented skills (AM got on 2 Dots more than SHamy , but instead Shamy has Bonus DETAUNT+MOVE speed buff. Then would you agree that doing DAMAGE much easier with AM, and to keep ur life safe with Shaman? or its still to hard for ya?)
2)let's compare WP and DOK
-OFc any girl knows that DoK got more Damage,but why?- dual weilding provide him with more Covenant procs, and yet as bonus he got 3 +dots+slow covenant.
-On other side we got WP with 2 tactics that generate Righteous Fury, and that alrdey much more Resource than Dok can dream of + absorb tactic =its all makes him almost perfect healer.
3)Kobts+Chosen
-Chosen almost all of his attacks non-physical so he cant careless about armor of his target (pots.), got 15% crit tactic and can lower enemy resists with his aura.
-Kobts on contrary feels like slave-support ,+crit to team,+heal to team -but almost all of his key-abilities pre-request a
"SHIELD" and its make so big lost of "PROS" to spec in 2hander .


Pets vs Stances (mara+SW VERSUS WL+SH)
-Pet its like goddess of utility - that runnig all day by ur side , you can turn around and escape -pet will still hunt ur target, yours personal tank.
-Stances (+20%crit tactic) ofc they have more damage per second, but in bigger picture they become hindrance - to switch between stances for only 1 skill that u need from other spec - does it even worth?, but if player skilled as hell
thay can use it to make overall damage much better than less skilled ppl.

We can go on further, but if you didnt get a hint yet -then maybe this game too smart for ya>>

[Lileldys]

The difference is is that on live being in a full group gave you 36 morale a second(From videos we managed to find). Allowing for morale 1 to be up in ~10s, m2 in ~20s, m3 in ~50s, and m4 in ~100s

Would be good to compile for multiple vids as many veterans (me including) has claimed "stuff worked like this" that later has been proven utterly wrong.

I'll have a wild guess @ 30/s in full grp from this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU8EKL09i_8

Renown tactics (98.93% sure)
Nemesis - Receive 5% less damage from Kings
King of the Hill - 5% Increased Renown in Skirmish

That vid was from when the original renown tactics were removed, and replaced with rr90/100 +1Mastery and +180? Wounds.

I can show a load of vids where you get morales in those kinda times, and it's been discussed amongst the dev team. They don't really want to do it as it buffs morale dumps, not that they're really used much atm because they take too long.

[roadkillrobin]

I can show a load of vids where you get morales in those kinda times, and it's been discussed amongst the dev team. They don't really want to do it as it buffs morale dumps, not that they're really used much atm because they take too long.

If this is true then Devs are creating ballance gaps in the game that shouldn't be there.

Live Version:
It makes the Morale pumping tactics scale porpotionally crazy high compared to live. On live the Chosen morale would baiscly boost their morale gain for around 67 M/Sec. Combine it with a full group and 36 M/Sec And you have A moralee regen that thats 3 times higher. Shamans can double a groups morale gain if they spec for it. Making it 66 M/Sec

RoR version:
If we look at these numbers with the current Morale Gain. Chosen gaining almoast 8 times times more morale compared to live wich was 3 times. Shaman group tactic increasing Morale gain by 4 times the amount compared to live wich was slightly less then x2.

Ballance issues:
So what if they toned down these tactics and builds: Then the game will highly favor thee realm wich have much better: Abillties, AP management, Crit rates, Defensive buffs, Higher heals. Wich in this case is order. The core ballance of this game weights heavy on that morale gain is better for one realm then the other while other one have better stactic defence/dmg/heals from abillties.
If Morale tactics were to be toned down coz they are oveerpeforming, it would create massive ballancre issues that would need to be fixed by decreases the advantages the other realm has aswell. This is just gonna be a endless spiral of creating more ballance isssues.

Sollution:
Is pretty simple, if Devs deems morale dumps to powerfull, it's the morale dmg that needs to be looked at.
However, Nerfing morale dmg is gonna give better geared players, zergs and cordinated groups more advanatges.
So this is my sugestion for cordinated Morale dump nerfs. INCREASE THE HP pools.

[footpatrol2]

I don't think the AoR/mythic servers morale gain is that bad.

I wrote extensively about morale 4 bombs before in my sig (origins of balance) and I was laughed at on these forums. Now dev's are considering not to go back to mythic's morale gain because of the fear of morale bombs?

In my opinion Morale bombs were suppose to dominate t4 meta. In my opinion it is critical that morale gets instantly drained upon a characters death to decrease defensive morale cycle's and the total impact of instant damage morale bombs.

In addition, IF morale gain goes back to what it used to be and, IF that racial morale gain tactic came back and, IF the dev's roll back the defensive morale cycle nerf, then racial groups would have a advantage with early defensive morale cycles and instant damage morale bombs.

Allowing for morale 1 to be up in ~10s, m2 in ~20s, m3 in ~50s, and m4 in ~100s

Racial groups would get thier morale 3 in 36 sec's and morale 4 in 78 sec's. Most instant damage morale bombs happen at morale 3 and 4. Thats 14 sec's faster for morale 3 then mixed groups and 22 sec's faster then mixed groups for morale 4's.

In a game where instant damage morale bombs provide the "I Win button" having that time advantage for racial groups, I dunno, makes me think that they are competitive. This is the meta I was predominately playing in with the 12 man dwarf group that had access to a mean defensive morale cycle and a very mean instant damage morale bomb.

You can do the same stuff with all the races but its just done differently which... is Awesome because it adds a dynamic layer. Mirror pushing destroys this.

In my opinion this is how mythic thought we'd be playing, desparately trying to get to thier "I win button". Players scrambling to get as much morale as possible for morale bombs and then players would play in racial groups to get even more morale faster. Actually thats how I stumbled on racial groups. Good ol' racial renown tactic.

There would be juke moves to try and trigger the oppositions morale bomb on the oppositions terms.

I doubt any of the IF's will be implemented besides the morale gain, which makes me sad...

[footpatrol2]

So..

Those morale pump tactics that destro has isn't really as powerful if you take into account the old morale gain system.

It kinda makes sense. The morale pump tactics that destro has is only perceived as more powerful due to how RoR is currently working morale gain. Since the morale gain is Really really slow in RoR those morale pump tactics that destro has is working even better due to order having to deal with slower build up times.

The morale bar is 3600 points.
You need 360, 720, 1800, and 3600 moral total for each level.
You generate 10 morale each second that you are in combat, base.

What I'm trying to say is on the mythic servers, in mixed groups, to get to your morale 4 only took 100 sec's or 1 minute 40 sec's.

In RoR, to get to your morale 4 takes 6 mintues. Massive difference.

Assuming lileldy's 36 morale gain per sec is correct, Lets look at the chosen morale tactic.

Spoiler:

In the mythic servers...
Lets assume your blocking constantly so you gain 200 morale per 3 sec's. Which breaks down to 66.66 morale gain per sec. 36 morale gain base in a full group. So you reach your morale 3 in 17.5 sec's and your morale 4 in 35 sec's. That morale gain purely coming from the tactic, for your morale 3 is 1166 morale and morale 4 is 2,333 morale. Your Base morale gain was for reaching morale 3 was 634 and for morale 4 was 1267.

In RoR server...
Chosen Morale tactic is still 66.66 per sec but the base is 10 morale per sec in RoR. Morale 3 is gained at 23.4 sec's morale 4 at 46.96 sec's. Morale gained purely from tactic for morale 3 is 1565 and morale 4 is 3133. Morale gained from base gain is, for morale 3 only 235 and for morale 4 is only 467. I'm rounding numbers so thats why the math is slightly off.

In old Mythic servers with no morale pump.

The difference is is that on live being in a full group gave you 36 morale a second(From videos we managed to find). Allowing for morale 1 to be up in ~10s, m2 in ~20s, m3 in ~50s, and m4 in ~100s

In RoR morale gain with no morale pump.
it takes 36 sec's for morale 1, 72 sec's morale 2, 180 sec's morale 3, 360 sec's morale 4.

This is a very drastic difference.

So its not really that the destro morale pump tactics are overpowered but its more that the morale gain is wrong and off-balance.

So I don't think mythic based balance with morale's based on the default morale's I think it was done with the racial morale's.

If you look and know the history mountain spirit is a morale 2 from the runepriest that used to last 30 sec's that is near identical to sprout carapace which used to be the chosen morale 3 ability. All this changed in the defensive morale cycle nerf that occurred. Notice they were both base morale's meaning by default these morale's came with every chosen/runepriest regardless of spec.

These specific morales want to be poped as early as possible to raise your groups overall effective health. They are not really clutch morale's like distracting bellow and immaculate defense.

In the mythic servers it took 20 sec's to start your defensive morale cycle with two runepriests.
In the mythic servers it took 50 sec's for a chosen to get to his morale 3 with no morale pump tactic.
In the mythic servers it took 17.5 sec's for a chosen to get to his morale 3 with a morale pump tactic.

This means for destro to be on par with the same defensive cycle only 1 chosen was needed to slot a morale pump tactic that required for him to have a SnB. I've mentioned this before, but the playstyle's of dwarves and chaos are extremely similar yet different.

Guess:
To fix the current morale gain you could use this system.

Spoiler:

10 morale base per sec's for a single person.
12 morale base per sec for 2 players in a group.
18 morale base per sec for 3 players in a group.
24 morale base per sec for 4 players in a group.
30 morale base per sec for 5 players in a group.
36 morale base per sec for 6 players in a group.

Sorry for the double post.